virago xv535 replace rear shocks? Advice needed

seabreeze <corriequk DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hagon seem a good choice as they are
> reasonably priced and can do custom jobs to order.

Hagon are good, yes.

>I am thinking of
> slightly softer shocks as I only take a pillion occasionally, and
> longer ones to both extend the travel of the shock, and height of the
> saddle slightly. Standard shock length is I think 11.25", and am
> thinking of extending to say 12.5". Is this sensible?

That's quite a change. It will almost certainly result in quicker
steering, which may or may not be a good thing. It will also increase
ground clearance, which is no bad thing on a cruiser. However, I would
not make that radical a change if it was my bike.

Sounds silly, but have you tried adjuster the standard shocks to a
softer setting?


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 >> Stay informed about: virago xv535 replace rear shocks? Advice needed 

seabreeze wrote:
>I am thinking of slightly softer shocks

No, you need slight soft *springs*. The first thing you need to do is depaint
an area of your current spring so you can measure the diameter of the wire
with a
vernier caliper.

Then you can use this calculator to determine the spring rate. It will give
you the rate of one spring.
http://www.engineersedge.com/spring_comp_calc_k.htm

Coil springs do not work by bending, they work by twisting so the modulus of
rigidity is about 11,000,000, the number in the right hand column of the page
hyperlinked to the first URL.

The springs you need should be able to support about 2.5 times the static
weight
on them before contacting the rubber damper that keeps them from bottoming
out.

You also need to study spring natural frequency and how it relates to ride
comfort. I wrote an article called "Good Vibrations" and posted it on alt.
motorcycle.sportbike about five years ago. Only a few of the engineering
types even began to understand the subject.

>Standard shock length is I think 11.25", and am
>thinking of extending to say 12.5". Is this sensible?

Sure, and you could also buy some really long shocks about 13.5 inches long
and lay them down at an angle so the effective spring rate is lower and you
get a softer ride that way.

But suspension modifications is not an area to get into lightly, you need to
understand spring rates and mechanical advantage and spring natural frequency
and how it relates to the motorcycle's wheelbase.

You have to understand static sag and operating sag too.

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"Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> wrote:

> No, you need slight soft *springs*.

FFS. We all know what he meant.

>The first thing you need to do is depaint
> an area of your current spring so you can measure the diameter of the wire
> with a
> vernier caliper.

No, you don't.

> Then you can use this calculator to determine the spring rate. It will give
> you the rate of one spring.
> http://www.engineersedge.com/spring_comp_calc_k.htm
>
<Snip>
>
> Sure, and you could also buy some really long shocks about 13.5 inches long
> and lay them down at an angle so the effective spring rate is lower and you
> get a softer ride that way.

Which means welding new mounts to the frame, you silly bastard.

>
> But suspension modifications is not an area to get into lightly, you need to
> understand spring rates and mechanical advantage and spring natural frequency
> and how it relates to the motorcycle's wheelbase.
>
> You have to understand static sag and operating sag too.

No you don't, not for a Virago. You try some softer shocks and see how
it feels.


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seabreeze wrote:
>Opinions/
>suggestions gratefully received.

One point that I forgot to mention is that hardcore riders who have
experimented with springs and shocks and preloading discovered that there was
a compromise between a plush ride and precise suspension control.

They didn't want to sacrifice the feeling of precision, so they started using
gel pads and foam or gel hand grips, or they started wearing padded bicycle
shorts under their riding gear.

The feet forward riding position of a cruiser causes the jolts to hit your
back anyway, there's nothing you can do about that without changing the foot
rest and control locations and changing the handlebars.

But it would be nice if you were able to raise your butt off the seat a
little bit when you saw rough pavement ahead.

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seabreeze wrote:

> Hi. I have a 1996 XV535 that has done about 5k miles. I find the
> suspension harsh over small bumps, typical of urban streets, these
> aggravate my back something rotten. I recently rode 170 miles around
> Samos in Greece on a 125cc scooter, on some very rough roads with no
> problem at all, I doubt I would have lasted a quarter of that on the
> virago. I'm about 6 ft tall, and weigh about 75 kg and am thinking
> about changing the rear shocks having already tried setting the
> preload to the softest setting. Hagon seem a good choice as they are
> reasonably priced and can do custom jobs to order. I am thinking of
> slightly softer shocks as I only take a pillion occasionally, and
> longer ones to both extend the travel of the shock, and height of the
> saddle slightly. Standard shock length is I think 11.25", and am
> thinking of extending to say 12.5". Is this sensible? Opinions/
> suggestions gratefully received.

Typical tale of OEM suspension units. Most of my bikes have had their
suspension units replaced with Hagon. Do it, you won't regret it. They are
a good compromise between price and performance. On the Virago, before you
go fitting longer units, trawl the owners forums for posts relating to any
issues.
 >> Stay informed about: virago xv535 replace rear shocks? Advice needed 

M.Badger <not.valid.RemoveThis@all.com.net.org> wrote:

> Typical tale of OEM suspension units. Most of my bikes have had their
> suspension units replaced with Hagon. Do it, you won't regret it. They are
> a good compromise between price and performance.

My experience completely. I've got them on my 400 Four and have had them
on other bikes. They're surprisingly well finished, too. Better than a
lot of Far Eastern stuff.

>On the Virago, before you
> go fitting longer units, trawl the owners forums for posts relating to any
> issues.

Good advice.



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 >> Stay informed about: virago xv535 replace rear shocks? Advice needed 

On 10 Oct, 08:09, "M.Badger" <not.va....TakeThisOut@all.com.net.org> wrote:
> seabreeze wrote:
> > Hi. I have a 1996XV535that has done about 5k miles. I find the
> > suspension harsh over small bumps, typical of urban streets, these
> > aggravate my back something rotten. I recently rode 170 miles around
> > Samos in Greece on a 125cc scooter, on some very rough roads with no
> > problem at all, I doubt I would have lasted a quarter of that on the
> > virago. I'm about 6 ft tall, and weigh about 75 kg and am thinking
> > about changing the rear shocks having already tried setting the
> > preload to the softest setting. Hagon seem a good choice as they are
> > reasonably priced and can do custom jobs to order. I am thinking of
> > slightly softer shocks as I only take a pillion occasionally, and
> > longer ones to both extend the travel of the shock, and height of the
> > saddle slightly. Standard shock length is I think 11.25", and am
> > thinking of extending to say 12.5". Is this sensible? Opinions/
> > suggestions gratefully received.
>
> Typical tale of OEM suspension units. Most of my bikes have had their
> suspension units replaced with Hagon. Do it, you won't regret it. They are
> a good compromise between price and performance. On the Virago, before you
> go fitting longer units, trawl the owners forums for posts relating to any
> issues.

In reply to my own question even, I just came across the Progressive
US website that lists products for the XV535, and what they suggest
is:

- A4 The shock recommended is slightly longer than stock. This may
alter the head angle slightly and give somewhat quicker steering.
A16 Approximate stock shock length is 11.75" -

Sizes offered for this bike are from 11" to 12.5", with the largest
choice of options being for the 12.5", so I am guessing that is their
suggestion.

http://www.progressivesuspension.com/prodSearchResults.aspx?yearID=199...akeID=4
 >> Stay informed about: virago xv535 replace rear shocks? Advice needed 

seabreeze wrote:

>Sizes offered for this bike are from 11" to 12.5", with the largest
>choice of options being for the 12.5", so I am guessing that is their
>suggestion.
>
>http://www.progressivesuspension.com/prodSearchResults.aspx?yearID=1996&makeID=48&modelID=511

Guessing, huh? And you want the blessing of strangers?

OK. Bless you, my son. In nomine patris et filius et spritu sancti. Hic haec
hoc, huius, huius, huius,
hocus pocus, and abracadbra, amen.

OTOH, if the sacriligious blessings of an atheist don't help, maybe you will
believe the ravings of a
tosspot who hangs out in a pub in East Surrey. He'll be along in an hour at
most.

As I said in my first message, YOU NEED TO FIND OUT WHAT THE SPRING RATE OF
THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT SPRINGS IS, before you plunk down your money on a
guess.

You want a softer ride, you want softer springs. But springs can be so soft
they allow the motorcycle to wallow in the curves. So, YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT
THE MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE OF THE SWING ARM IS, over the spring.

The people who run parts counters and mail order houses don't know the first
thing about re-engineering your suspension system, all they know how to do is
match part numbers with the model you tell them you own.

Progressive Suspension makes a limited number of generic springs and shocks
and claims that they fit many different models. I'm sure they will be very
happy to sell you *something*. They will sell you *anything* you will buy,
since "the customer is always right," even when he's just guessing.

If I was going to buy longer shocks, I would hope that the longer shocks had
a LONGER STROKE, so I could use a SOFTER SPRING and make up the total load
carrying capacity using a longer spring.

But this probably never occurred to you. If the shock is an inch longer, but
has the same rate spring, it's not going to help your butt ache, is it?

If your new LONGER SHOCK has a SOFTER SPRING, it will SAG MORE under your
weight.

If the new springs SAGS MORE, the steering geometry will not be changed as
much as it would if you simply installed a longer shock with the same spring
rate.

I still think you would be better off with a gel seat pad and keep the stock
shocks, at least until you get a clue about what you are doing.

If you finally do get the softer springs you think you need, and one of your
buddies complains about how his butt hurts, you can sell him your gel pad.

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seabreeze <corriequk.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In reply to my own question even, I just came across the Progressive
> US website that lists products for the XV535, and what they suggest
> is:
>
> - A4 The shock recommended is slightly longer than stock. This may
> alter the head angle slightly and give somewhat quicker steering.
> A16 Approximate stock shock length is 11.75" -

Buy a stock length shock. Buy Hagon. Cheap, reliable, work well, and the
company knows what it's doing. Forget all this guff about measuring
springs - order a pair from Hagon, and they'll delight you with the
improvement over stock.

A 535's suspension is compromised enough as it is, so you'll never get
it to feel like a plush tourer.

Nice bike, the 535. My favourite small Jap custom bike.


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On 15 Oct, 18:54, chateau.murray.takethis....RemoveThis@dsl.pipex.com (The Older
Gentleman) wrote:
> seabreeze <corrie....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In reply to my own question even, I just came across the Progressive
> > US website that lists products for the XV535, and what they suggest
> > is:
>
> > - A4 The shock recommended is slightly longer than stock. This may
> > alter the head angle slightly and give somewhat quicker steering.
> > A16 Approximate stock shock length is 11.75" -
>
> Buy a stock length shock. Buy Hagon. Cheap, reliable, work well, and the
> company knows what it's doing. Forget all this guff about measuring
> springs - order a pair from Hagon, and they'll delight you with the
> improvement over stock.
>
> A 535's suspension is compromised enough as it is, so you'll never get
> it to feel like a plush tourer.
>
> Nice bike, the 535. My favourite small Jap custom bike.
>
> --
> BMW K1100LT 750SS CB400F CD250 CB125 SL125
> GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
> BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....


Thanks very much for the advice and help - it's not a simple decision
as funds are fairly limited. What I will do I think is check non-
loaded length, static sag (no rider) and sag with rider (me) in riding
position, and see if the standard shocks with my weight tally with
what is generally considered normal for most bikes. Then have a word
with Hagon and see what they suggest - I agree, that they will
possibly just want to sell me whatever, with possibly little in the
way of research in terms of effects; what is clear is that I need a
good idea of how whatever I choose to do with it will affect handling,
and how spring rates etc will affect the general behaviour of the
bike. I am tempted towards changing the length and stiffness a little
because if I don't I might then wonder it it might have been better to
do so; and of course on the other hand there is the issue is that the
stock length and spring rate is how the manufacturers originally
designed the bike to be made and set up for riding.

Will post again and let you know.
 >> Stay informed about: virago xv535 replace rear shocks? Advice needed 

seabreeze <corriequk.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What I will do I think is check non-
> loaded length, static sag (no rider) and sag with rider (me) in riding
> position,

That's not a bad route to take.

> and see if the standard shocks with my weight tally with
> what is generally considered normal for most bikes.

Trouble here is that cruisers are generally set up with softish
suspension, whereas sports bikes aren't. There's no hard and fast rule.

>Then have a word
> with Hagon and see what they suggest - I agree, that they will
> possibly just want to sell me whatever, with possibly little in the
> way of research in terms of effects;

I think you're doing them down unnecessarily. Believe me, they *really*
know their stuff. I was in their factory/warehouse about a month ago.

> what is clear is that I need a
> good idea of how whatever I choose to do with it will affect handling,
> and how spring rates etc will affect the general behaviour of the
> bike.

Hagon will advise. Listen to them.

>I am tempted towards changing the length and stiffness a little
> because if I don't I might then wonder it it might have been better to
> do so; and of course on the other hand there is the issue is that the
> stock length and spring rate is how the manufacturers originally
> designed the bike to be made and set up for riding.

Yes and no. Standard isn't always best (cost constraints, plus the fact
that riders differ widely in terms of weight and riding style) but it's
usually a pretty good place to start.


--
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 >> Stay informed about: virago xv535 replace rear shocks? Advice needed 

seabreeze wrote:

I am tempted towards changing the length and stiffness a little
>because if I don't I might then wonder it it might have been better to
>do so.

Go for it. You will learn something.

and of course on the other hand there is the issue is that the
>stock length and spring rate is how the manufacturers originally
>designed the bike to be made and set up for riding.

Well, the engineers who designed the motorcycle and the engineers who
designed the shocks are two different groups of people who never met each
other.

Yamaha is famous for using commitees who aren't on speaking terms with each
other designing whole motorcycles.

And the final decision goes to the marketers and the bean counters.

If they can save $1.00 per shock absorber, that's heaven to them, they will
fit the cheaper shock regardless of performance, especially on commuter and
cruiser models where the customer is unlikely to know the difference.

Japanese motorcycles were once famous for their load carrying capacity. The
Japanese rider would try to take three or more people for a ride on his
motorcycle at the same time in the 1970's.

American magazine writers complained about the incredible rigidity of the
springs and, about 1982, the Japanese surprised us by building motorcycles
with softer springs!

The whole suspension picture was turned on its head. Suddenly, we had the
softer springs that most solo riders really needed, and the racers needed
*stiffer* springs!

Gawd only knows what is on your XV535, but Koni, who has been building the
same 7610-series shock for 40 years, appears to think you need two incredible
235 pound per inch springs!

http://www.ikonsuspension.com/content/shock_absorber_details.shtml

Let's see 235 X 2 springs X 3.5 inches of travel = 1645 pounds!

My gawd, what do they think Americans are going to carry on a motorcycle if
it takes 1645 pounds to bottom out the rear shocks?

If the rider is carrying a passenger and the static load on the rear wheel is
400 pounds, it will take 4.11 g's force to bottom the springs. Discounting
the mechanical advantage of the swingarm and the slight angle that the shock
is at, from the vertical, of course.

In my mind, a rear suspension that bottomed out (hit the rubber snubbers,
that is) after a load of 2.5 g's is applied would be just fine.

Looks to me like 142 pound/inch springs would be more like it.

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