"unusual" engine noise - need advice

Centurion wrote:
 > Hi All,
 >
 > This is a request for help from all you spanner-monkeys. My beloved 2002
 > ZX9R has developed a distinctive high-speed "clicking" noise coming from
 > the top of the motor somewhere (sounds to high in the motor to be gear box
 > or clutch - but what would I know?). It's most noticeable when cold and
 > started a few weeks after the last service
 > and has got steadily worse since then.
 >
 > The last service was the 12,000km job which involved the valve clearances
 > (no shims changed either).

And here should end your story. I'd love to see a Kwaka that didn't need the
shims changed at 12,000km. IK will no doubt support this one too. It it
extremely unlikely that the 9R would be ok on all shims. I'd consider
changing dealers after they look into it and get someone who actually knows
what they're doing. Did they even take the valve covers off??? Ticking
noises are usually clearances and are worse when cold and can be heard again
at higher engine rpms. My money is on that .....

Anyway I have it booked into the local Kwakka
 > dealer on the 13th to look into it. What worries me is the warranty
 > expires on the 15th of May - knowing my luck the donk will explode on the
 > 16th!
 >
 > The mechanic has suggested that it might be the cam chain tensioner.
Anyone
 > else have any mildly intelligent ideas of what else I should get them to
 > look at? IK? Zebee? anyone?
 >
 > James
 > ZZR250==>ZX9R<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

FuTAnT wrote:

 > Centurion wrote:
  >> Hi All,
  >>
  >> This is a request for help from all you spanner-monkeys. My beloved 2002
  >> ZX9R has developed a distinctive high-speed warranty" noise coming from
  >> the top of the motor somewhere (sounds to high in the motor to be gear
  >> box
  >> or clutch - but what would I know?). It's most noticeable when cold and
  >> started a few weeks after the last service
  >> and has got steadily worse since then.
  >>
  >> The last service was the 12,000km job which involved the valve clearances
  >> (no shims changed either).
 >
 > And here should end your story. I'd love to see a Kwaka that didn't need
 > the shims changed at 12,000km. IK will no doubt support this one too. It
 > it extremely unlikely that the 9R would be ok on all shims. I'd consider
 > changing dealers after they look into it and get someone who actually
 > knows what they're doing. Did they even take the valve covers off???

Agreed. I thought I'd stay with the dealer for warranty "security". I
know, any "licensed mechanic" can service your bike and the warranty is
"valid" - but claiming on a warranty serviced by non-dealer mechanic is
another headache all together.....been there, tried that, got burned.

 > Ticking noises are usually clearances and are worse when cold and can be
 > heard again at higher engine rpms. My money is on that .....

I'm inclined to agree with you on that - IK mentioned this when I posted the
service invoice after the last service (complete with $300+ price tag!!).
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if the shims are worn beyond "spec", the
valves and pistons aren't gonna start competing for the same space right?
Just that the vavles wont open "fully". Or have I got it arse-about and
the pistons will start head-butting the valves any day soon???

James
ZZR250==>ZX9R
--
Fortune cookies says:
God made everything out of nothing, but the nothingness shows through.
-- Paul Valery<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

Clearances too large = lower engine performance, but piston hitting valves
problems, clearances too small can mean hitting problems. (But shouldn't
unless you're talking GP type engines.)

--
James Mayfield
"Insert witty comment here."



"Centurion" <spam_this.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:7bn6k1-rk.ln1@news.grayonline.id.au...
 > FuTAnT wrote:
 >
  > > Centurion wrote:
   > >> Hi All,
   > >>
   > >> This is a request for help from all you spanner-monkeys. My beloved
2002
   > >> ZX9R has developed a distinctive high-speed warranty" noise coming from
   > >> the top of the motor somewhere (sounds to high in the motor to be gear
   > >> box
   > >> or clutch - but what would I know?). It's most noticeable when cold
and
   > >> started a few weeks after the last service
   > >> and has got steadily worse since then.
   > >>
   > >> The last service was the 12,000km job which involved the valve
clearances
   > >> (no shims changed either).
  > >
  > > And here should end your story. I'd love to see a Kwaka that didn't need
  > > the shims changed at 12,000km. IK will no doubt support this one too. It
  > > it extremely unlikely that the 9R would be ok on all shims. I'd consider
  > > changing dealers after they look into it and get someone who actually
  > > knows what they're doing. Did they even take the valve covers off???
 >
 > Agreed. I thought I'd stay with the dealer for warranty "security". I
 > know, any "licensed mechanic" can service your bike and the warranty is
 > "valid" - but claiming on a warranty serviced by non-dealer mechanic is
 > another headache all together.....been there, tried that, got burned.
 >
  > > Ticking noises are usually clearances and are worse when cold and can be
  > > heard again at higher engine rpms. My money is on that .....
 >
 > I'm inclined to agree with you on that - IK mentioned this when I posted
the
 > service invoice after the last service (complete with $300+ price tag!!).
 > Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if the shims are worn beyond "spec", the
 > valves and pistons aren't gonna start competing for the same space right?
 > Just that the vavles wont open "fully". Or have I got it arse-about and
 > the pistons will start head-butting the valves any day soon???
 >
 > James
 > ZZR250==>ZX9R
 > --
 > Fortune cookies says:
 > God made everything out of nothing, but the nothingness shows through.
 > -- Paul Valery
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

As Dane suggested

Cam Chain Tensioner - earlier ZX9models tended to use these alot. B1-B4.

If you use high revs on the bike - I suggest you have the valves checked
VERY regularly. They tend to pull through & then the end of the valve breaks
off under pressure.

After popping 3 of these I know! - Although it did rev to 14200 on most
occasions ( redline is 11500 ).

If it makes a whirring sound when revving when cold, have the actual chain &
chain guides checked, these are also a problem.
--
Daron

ebay? - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/ykgh" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/ykgh</a>

"Centurion" <spam_this.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:0aj6k1-rnf.ln1@news.grayonline.id.au...
 > Hi All,
 >
 > This is a request for help from all you spanner-monkeys. My beloved 2002
 > ZX9R has developed a distinctive high-speed "clicking" noise coming from
 > the top of the motor somewhere (sounds to high in the motor to be gear box
 > or clutch - but what would I know?). It's most noticeable when cold and
 > started a few weeks after the last service
 > and has got steadily worse since then.
 >
 > The last service was the 12,000km job which involved the valve clearances
 > (no shims changed either). Anyway I have it booked into the local Kwakka
 > dealer on the 13th to look into it. What worries me is the warranty
 > expires on the 15th of May - knowing my luck the donk will explode on the
 > 16th!
 >
 > The mechanic has suggested that it might be the cam chain tensioner.
Anyone
 > else have any mildly intelligent ideas of what else I should get them to
 > look at? IK? Zebee? anyone?
 >
 > James
 > ZZR250==>ZX9R
 > --
 > Fortune cookies says:
 > Machine-Independent, adj.:
 > Does not run on any existing machine.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

"Centurion" <spam_this.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote:
 >
 > Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if the shims are worn beyond "spec", the
 > valves and pistons aren't gonna start competing for the same space right?
 > Just that the vavles wont open "fully". Or have I got it arse-about and
 > the pistons will start head-butting the valves any day soon???

Not quite. Pistons and valves don't really come into such close proximity
that 100 microns one way or the other is going to dramatically increase the
chances of them smacking into each other. Valve clearances need to be
adjusted for thermal expansion reasons (valve stems are long and thin,
meaning they stretch well when hot), oil access to the top of the valve
bucket, and to keep the valve faces from smacking into the valve seats too
hard and causing them to recess into the soft aluminium casting of the
cylinder head and the valves themselves to become elongated.

For a piston and a valve to collide, you need to do something dramatic, like
overrev the engine so thoroughly as to cause valve flutter, break a valve
spring (due to a bodgy component sneaking through quality control, these
days), or, most commonly by a fair margin, ride around like enough of a
numpty to snap a valve stem and cause the valve to fall into the cylinder,
carnage ensuing when the piston next comes barrelling (honk-honk) up the
bore.

As for your problem...

Is the noise stronger on the left or the right of the engine?
(stick your ear next to the cooling gill on each side)
Is the clicking noise more similar to an old mechanical typewriter (like a
clatter-type noise, indicating cam lobes and valve buckets aren't meeting up
as they should) or a rattlesnake's tail, which is the sound of a loose
camchain?
With your ear next to the cylinder head on the right-hand side of the bike,
blip the throttle at idle. Does the noise momentarily spike in volume and
develop a lower-frequency modulation as the revs come down? If yes, this
would mean the camchain tensioner isn't doing its job.
Is the bike hard to start? Does it idle smoothly? These two are faint
symptoms of tight valve clearances, but they're also symptoms of the onset
of colder weather, and about 20 other things.

Even though the valves wouldn't've been adjusted at that sham of a 12,000km
service, it's unlikely that anything truly catastrophic would've come out of
it over the past year. Maybe the top end's lifespan would've been shortened
by 10,000km, so it'll now only last 190,000km and not 200,000. That's why
it's so tempting for shops to skip it; chances are that, by the time the
neglect catches up with it, the bike will either be on its fifth owner, or
the engine will be in its fifth bike and enroute to its fifth stint on a
wrecker's shelf.

All modern engines are built with wafer-thin outer walls and tight coolant
galleries which rely on flow speed to maintain cooling, meaning that there
isn't much to isolate your eardrum from the mechanical World War III going
on inside the motor; they all rattle, clatter, buzz and whirr. Modern
four-stroke dirtbikes sound like they need a rebuild right out of the crate,
and their internal noises form a full-on opera, with noises coming in, dying
down, chorusing and dominating depending on how long it's been running, how
long since the last time you appreciably slipped the clutch... still freaks
me out.

Can you honestly say the noise is excessively loud (louder than, say, the
sound the chain makes when you're lubing it) or harsh in nature? One bit of
fully concrete advice I would have is to implore you not to take the bike
back to the place which ripped you off on the 12,000km service. If they've
fucked something up, what do you think your chances are of them actually
putting it right, especially with only three days to go on the warranty.

Ring up a reputable workshop, one_not,_I repeat, NOT, associated with a
dealer, any dealer, and get them to look at it. If it has to be in Sydney,
then catch a train home one night.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

Intact Kneeslider wrote:

 > "Centurion" wrote:
  >>
  >> Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if the shims are worn beyond "spec", the
  >> valves and pistons aren't gonna start competing for the same space right?
  >> Just that the vavles wont open "fully". Or have I got it arse-about and
  >> the pistons will start head-butting the valves any day soon???
 >
 > As for your problem...
 >
 > Is the noise stronger on the left or the right of the engine?
 > (stick your ear next to the cooling gill on each side)

Slightly more on the right. Loudest if you stick your ear next to the
little gap between the frame and the tank.

 > Is the clicking noise more similar to an old mechanical typewriter (like a
 > clatter-type noise, indicating cam lobes and valve buckets aren't meeting
 > up as they should) or a rattlesnake's tail, which is the sound of a loose
 > camchain?

Definitely the mechanical type-writer noise. Strangley it's more noticeable
after the engine has been running for a few seconds, so I dont think it's
just the "top end chatter" as it waits for the oil to get to the head.

 > With your ear next to the cylinder head on the right-hand side of the
 > bike, blip the throttle at idle. Does the noise momentarily spike in
 > volume and develop a lower-frequency modulation as the revs come down? If
 > yes, this would mean the camchain tensioner isn't doing its job.

Hard to say. When I blip the throttle with my head 2 inches from the
headers I *feel* pain in my ears more than hear anything The
"clickety-rattle" just gets faster but the low-frequency modulation you
describe isn't apparent (might need a more trained ear tho....I can pick
aircraft by their engine noise - same sorta thing I guess; years of
practise).

 > Is the bike hard to start? Does it idle smoothly? These two are faint
 > symptoms of tight valve clearances, but they're also symptoms of the onset
 > of colder weather, and about 20 other things.

Not really harder to start, but it's always been a bit "lumpy" at idle. I
just put it down to being a big-bore bike not liking <1000RPM idle.
Although it does seem a little down on grunt in the 4000-7000RPM range.
Above that it's always wanted to haul the front wheel skyward. Seems I
used to be able to leave it in 6th, wind on the throttle at 4000RPM and it
would accelerate like a rocket - now it kind bogs down until about
5500-6000RPM and really doesn't get a wriggle-on until 7000+RPM. I'm
always kicking it back a gear or two to overtake cars now to get the same
sort of rapid roll-on response. Could this be symptomatic of valve
clearances? I'm guessing it would be.....could be wrong tho.

 > Even though the valves wouldn't've been adjusted at that sham of a
 > 12,000km service, it's unlikely that anything truly catastrophic would've
 > come out of it over the past year.

Ah - you remembered So does my bank balance!

 > All modern engines are built with wafer-thin outer walls and tight coolant
 > galleries which rely on flow speed to maintain cooling, meaning that there
 > isn't much to isolate your eardrum from the mechanical World War III going
 > on inside the motor; they all rattle, clatter, buzz and whirr.

The ZX9 has always sounded a little "agricultural" next to FireBlades and
Gixxers (which seeme to sound more like a turbine at idle than a piston
powered machine). But this more recent "noise" wasn't there 2 years ago
when I bought it, and wasn't there (noticeably at least) when it was last
serviced.

 > Can you honestly say the noise is excessively loud (louder than, say, the
 > sound the chain makes when you're lubing it) or harsh in nature? One bit
 > of fully concrete advice I would have is to implore you not to take the
 > bike back to the place which ripped you off on the 12,000km service. If
 > they've fucked something up, what do you think your chances are of them
 > actually putting it right, especially with only three days to go on the
 > warranty.

Different mechanic - and a long conversation (with correspondence to back it
up) with Kawasaki Aust. I let them know about the service, faxed them a
copy of the invoice, and their own mechanics said it was "unusual"
especially considering the fact the bike has done a couple of track days.

 > Ring up a reputable workshop, one_not,_I repeat, NOT, associated with a
 > dealer, any dealer, and get them to look at it. If it has to be in Sydney,
 > then catch a train home one night.

Yeh - no problem there. Recommendations anyone? What about that guy on the
Princes Hwy at the northern end of Rockdale? I've also heard of a guy in
Alexandria that was good. I've got friends in South-Western Sydney
(Campbelltown, Liverpool etc) who can ferry me around to mechanics if
necessary.

James
ZZR250==>ZX9R
--
Fortune cookies says:
The wise man seeks everything in himself; the ignorant man tries to get
everything from somebody else.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

"Centurion" wrote
 > Slightly more on the right. Loudest if you stick your ear next to the
 > little gap between the frame and the tank.

If you don't possess an automotive stethoscope use a long screwdriver to
listen to the internal noises in the engine. Put pointy end on desired
engine area, stick the blunt end in your r(oops)ear.

Theo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

i agree , my mates 2002 636 neeeded its shims done at 6000 kays, cant
remember how many but a few, my mechanics had a nuumber of zx6r 636i in they
theyve needed needed shims doing

my zx7r at 18 thou needed 12 out of 18 doing ...ouch....all tight

kwaks have a rep for needing shims early on imho.

changing shims isa a pissy annoying job and most likely the shop
couldbefucked or didnt have the right size shims there
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

 > Centurion wrote:
 > <snippage>
 > I'm inclined to agree with you on that - IK mentioned this when I posted
the
 > service invoice after the last service (complete with $300+ price tag!!).
 > Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if the shims are worn beyond "spec", the
 > valves and pistons aren't gonna start competing for the same space right?
 > Just that the vavles wont open "fully". Or have I got it arse-about and
 > the pistons will start head-butting the valves any day soon???
 >
 > James
 > ZZR250==>ZX9R
</snippage>

That depends on the clearances. Ie, are they too tight or too loose. If the
clearances are tight or they have gone to zero it means that the cams will
have a constant pressure on the bucket and inturn the valves and they never
close (seat) properly and will eventually burn out. There would be a very
very small chance that the pistons would head but the valves but this would
be something out of a sci-fi novel. Ie, they'd have to be a LONG way out for
this to happen. Take it easy on that one.

In your case (by the sounds of it, ie the ticking) I'd say they are too lare
(the clearances). This means there is too much gap between the cams and
buckets and means you won't get the correct lift and duration. The noise is
from the cam lobes 'slapping' into the buckets. It's not the best. I'm sure
they aren't too far out, they don't need to be that much out for a bit of
noise to start happening.

Best thing is to just get them to adjust them (ie swap shims etc)
properly.If they don't do this or reckon they have, I'd run as fast as
possible and just take it to somewhere you KNOW will do a proper job. Atleas
then you know everything is sweet.

Cam
'03 954<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 5 Apr 2004 17:09:32 +1000
FuTAnT <blah.RemoveThis@blah.com> wrote:
 >
 > In your case (by the sounds of it, ie the ticking) I'd say they are too lare
 > (the clearances). This means there is too much gap between the cams and
 > buckets and means you won't get the correct lift and duration. The noise is
 > from the cam lobes 'slapping' into the buckets. It's not the best. I'm sure
 > they aren't too far out, they don't need to be that much out for a bit of
 > noise to start happening.

Ahh! It's tryng to be a Guzzi!

remember... a rattley tappet is a happy tappet....


Zebee
- who is still trying to work out where they put the pushrods on these
4cyl things.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee.DeleteThis@zip.com.au> wrote in message

 > - who is still trying to work out where they put the pushrods on these
 > 4cyl things.

Every friggin' ten thousand ks they have to be checked. Gawd, I never had to
check the Hogly's valves in a hundred 'n eighty thousand ks...

Doug Cox.
Work to ride, Ride to work...
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://toosmoky.d2.net.au" target="_blank">http://toosmoky.d2.net.au</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

"Centurion" <spam_this.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3227k1-tv.ln1@news.grayonline.id.au...
<massive snippage>
 >
 > Yeh - no problem there. Recommendations anyone? What about that guy on
the
 > Princes Hwy at the northern end of Rockdale? I've also heard of a guy in
 > Alexandria that was good. I've got friends in South-Western Sydney
 > (Campbelltown, Liverpool etc) who can ferry me around to mechanics if
 > necessary.
 >
 > James
 > ZZR250==>ZX9R
 > --
 > Fortune cookies says:
 > The wise man seeks everything in himself; the ignorant man tries to get
 > everything from somebody else.
 >

Shit, i didn't realise you were close to Sydney! Ah ha, the answer to your
dreams of a smooth running Kwaka that pulls harder than a 2 dollar hooker
and is as smooth as a babies arse is .............

Beaconsfield Motorcycle Supermarket (BMS Moto for everyone else)
376 Botany Road
Beaconsfield NSW 2015
(02) 9587 3000

Really good bunch of blokes. Wei Hi (not really sure of the correct
spelling) is the Mech that works on most of the Jap stuff. He's one of those
dudes that will replace your shims just to make sure they are in the
'middle' of the correct range, or at the 'ends' if they need to be depending
on how some bikes wear shims. He knows lots about ZX shims now with my bikes
that I've put through there.

And ... this is your success story to getting a proper service including
shim swapping in 1 DAY!!!

1. Ring them up and book your bike in. Tell them exactly what you want
done and that you will be arranging fast courier SAME DAY service for the
shims to be sent to them. It helps them so they can allocate the time to get
it done etc.

2. Drop the bike off the night before. Why? So the bike is stone cold at
7:30 or 8am when they open. That means they're ready to crank and don't have
to fart arse around. They like you doing this. Also, take the fairings off
either side, always helps a bit too! Less labour and mechanics love u for
it.

3. You will either need alternative transport or a mobile phone and
access to VIP courier service. I would make my way to Paramatta Kwaka and
wait on a call from BMS telling you the sizes you need. Pick them up from
Paramatta Kwaka or get them couriered. If they don't have the shims ring
Sydney Motorcycle Wreckers or other places around that might have the shims
for you. It can be a real ball breaker, but up on the upside, they've got a
few spares at the shop (I hope!) from my kwakas, so you might be in luck!!!
(Fancy that eh!)

4. Ride like a bat out of hell back to BMS or wait patiently for the
courier to take far to long to get the shims to you. (I think I prefer doing
it myself, atleast you KNOW whats going on).

5. Go up the road and sit around, or catch a train into town, chew some
time. Leave the guys alone and let em do their wonders!

6. Pick up bike and wonder how the hell a decent service could make such
a difference!

So there you have it, that's my step by step guide to a 8hr turn around
including a shim swap. Sounds good eh? I did it with my last ZX6R and was
fucken stoked when I pulled it off. Get em to balance the carbies for you
and put in new spark plugs if the previous wankers didn't bother at the
12,000km.

That should have you sorted. Tell em Cam with the ZX6R's and the Blade sent
you. Then they'll shoot me for sending more kwaka stuff to them. haha.

Oh yeah, and incase you are wondering, they don't stock Kwaka shims 'cause
they aren't a Kwaka dealer as such. They are actually a Honda dealer (who
would have thought though!) and basically survive mostly on servicing bikes.
Plenty of other people on here will chime in with the quality, time and cost
of their service.

Cam
'03 954<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice 

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee.TakeThisOut@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnc7228c.fij.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
 > In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 5 Apr 2004 17:09:32 +1000
 > FuTAnT <blah.TakeThisOut@blah.com> wrote:
  > >
  > > In your case (by the sounds of it, ie the ticking) I'd say they are too
lare
  > > (the clearances). This means there is too much gap between the cams and
  > > buckets and means you won't get the correct lift and duration. The noise
is
  > > from the cam lobes 'slapping' into the buckets. It's not the best. I'm
sure
  > > they aren't too far out, they don't need to be that much out for a bit
of
  > > noise to start happening.
 >
 > Ahh! It's tryng to be a Guzzi!
 >
 > remember... a rattley tappet is a happy tappet....
 >
 >
 > Zebee
 > - who is still trying to work out where they put the pushrods on these
 > 4cyl things.

I'd like to see the pushrods on a 5 valve yammie.

Cam
'03 954<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "unusual" engine noise - need advice