All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th..

On Oct 1, 1:59 pm, rb608 <junkmail....RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 1:41 pm, oasysco <wilderkom....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> > basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice?
>
> On my daily commute, one winding rural road has occasional manhole
> covers that are depressed below the road surface, just far enough to
> give you a decent bump when you hit 'em. In all the years I've ridden
> this road, I've not bothered to remember where these are; and when
> driving home in traffic, one will suddenly appear from beneath the car
> in front. I'll occasionally play a game where I'll try and evade them
> on "short notice".

Yeah, I "evade" trash and manholes between work and home. Cars behind
me must think there's something wrong with me when I swerve to avoid a
paper cup -

>
> Tight turns & leaning I get enough practice with just riding around.
> On hard left leans, my kickstand will sometimes scrape, and that's
> when I know it's okay to ease up a bit.

I don' get much of chance to scrape pegs where I live, except for
crazy traffic circles.

Greg
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

On Oct 1, 2:12 pm, oasysco <wilderkom....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don' get much of chance to scrape pegs where I live, except for
> crazy traffic circles.

Yeah, that's my most frequent location. I'm not that nuts at high
speed.
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

On Oct 1, 2:21 pm, "Bill Walker" <bill.walk....TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote:
> "oasysco" <wilderkom....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191260518.049603.192130@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >I think everybody agrees that bikes themselves aren't to blame for
> > crashes. That is, bikes are capable of far more than most riders can
> > deliver and if you wipe out, it's usually not because of the bike.
>
> > Here, I'm talking about slower maneuvers like doing figure 8's in a
> > single parking space (as opposed to the two wide they give you in the
> > MSF).
>
> > There was a link here recently to a site of good riding tips,I think
> > from a biker cop. Anyway, he talked about the extreme left and right
> > handlebar positions to perform a little dip instead of a wide turn and
> > duck-walking a bike back into a parking space.
>
> > And then there was discussion on steering maneuvers... you know rush
> > headlong at an object, hard brake and take evasive action at the last
> > possible moment. In the MSF, the instructor calls our right or left
> > for which way you are supposed to go before hitting a barrier, so it's
> > more reactive than doing it all yourself where you know ahead of time
> > which way you are going.
>
> > And then you have "riding circles around fill-in-the-blank". You could
> > actually ride in a tight circle with the handlebars pulled to the
> > extreme right or left - you know, to the point where riders might feel
> > like they'll tip over.
>
> > Or swervnig in and out of cones even to the point of dragging pegs.
>
> > Practicing these things seems a good way to really get to know your
> > bike... to know how far you can lean before you'll tip over; to know
> > how the bikes feels in a sharp evasive turn; to know your limits and
> > what you need to improve.
>
> > It's one thing to go thru the MSF as most seem to have, but it's quite
> > another to have to put your practice to the test in real life
> > situations. And it's still another to routinely practice those
> > maneuvers so that when the time comes, you fall back on your training/
> > practice without thinking about it.
>
> > Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> > basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
> > you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
> > bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?
>
> > Greg
>
> Came through El Paso, by myself.. earlier this year.. Wanted to take a break
> and kill some time, so I got in touch with one of the old brothers, there..
> BTW
> he's one of the El Paso motorcops.. He was kinda on/off duty and we had
> lunch.. He invited me to ride back over to work with him.. and I thought, it
> was
> a little strange.. he was wearing the cops pants and boots, but he had on a
> civilian type shirt..
>
> When we got there.. it was the training classes for the motorcops and man..
> I stood there with my mouth open.. Those guys looked like they were doing
> u-turns in the space of a parking slot.. I've always know that motorcops
> were
> excellent bike handlers, but some of the manuevers those guys were pract-
> icing caused my eyes to bug out.. Their training classes are so much ad-
> vanced over the typical MSF courses, it isn't even fair to compare them..
>
> Too bad.. they only offer the classes once or twice each year.. and they are
> only classes for law enforcement .. There were guys there from all over
> Texas..
> so I guess El Paso must have something going on. One of the officers from
> Austin and me kinda buddied up a little bit.. He seemed to be one of the
> better ones in the class, although all of them were superb bike handlers..
>
> He'd just come back from a crash and evidently his department made them
> re-take the course if they went down or something..
>
> I'd sure like to figure out how to wrangle my way into one of those
> courses..
> Awesome day and I sure met some of the LEO good guys..
>
> Bill Walker
>

Yeah, I hear those classes are 120+ hours and they're not on 125/250cc
bikes either. Like you say, no comparison to MSF.

Greg
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

On Oct 1, 11:41 am, oasysco <wilderkom....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
> you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
> bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?

Not really. I think most riders just continue honing their skills as
they go along.

Travelling down a street with no cars behind and the light turns
yellow at the point-near-no-return, you can do a full-emergency-stop
(important to not do this with a car or other bike right on your
tail!). What's better is that you will be practicing such stops at
realistic riding speeds (stopping from 40 or 60 mph is a whole
different kettle of fish than stopping at parking lot speeds).

You can practice swerving plenty by avoiding manholes and debris on
the road. When on the road yourself, you can also weave back and
forth at all kinds of speeds (including highway speeds). Good
practice and, again, more representative of real riding conditions and
speeds.

Tight turns? Lots of opportunities for that - even as a show-off
thing. You know, your buddies are paddle-footing their bikes around,
while you execute the turn-around with feet on pegs... grinning your
ass off as you do it.

There's so many opportunities to sharpen your skills with everyday
riding, I don't see the use in going to an abandoned parking lot.
Maybe when you're first starting off, but not after that.

Seems to have worked for me. Emergency-stopping for a drunken
pedestrian trying to commit suicide about 5 years ago. The whole
thing happened at 60 mph. and involved maximum, straight-line
stopping, then releasing the brakes and swerving sharply - all things
I practiced on a regular basis in the ways I described. The bike
didn't go down, I didn't loose control and avoided a head-on collision
(something probably saved the woman's life and possibly my own as
well).

When you need it, you'll really need it. Based on what I've observed
in other riders, precious few know what it takes to emergency stop
their motorcycle at highway speeds. Unlike city speeds, it takes a
huge amount of grip force to the front brake lever (on an older
Harley, at least). Not many people have practiced that before the
first time they needed to do it, I suspect.
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

"oasysco" <wilderkommen.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1191260518.049603.192130@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>I think everybody agrees that bikes themselves aren't to blame for
> crashes. That is, bikes are capable of far more than most riders can
> deliver and if you wipe out, it's usually not because of the bike.

Sure. For one thing, it wasn't the BIKE that decided to take itself
out of the garage in the first place, right?

> Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
> you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
> bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?

I try to, although I have to admit it's not as often as I
probably should. There's always a school parking lot or some
such available for a Sunday afternoon practice session.
When I do, it's mostly just the sort of things you mentioned,
although clearly there's no way to do the "last minute swerve to
avoid" sort of manuever without having someone there to yell
out "Left!" or "Right!" Slow circles around a point, or through
and around the lines that define the spaces on the lot; sometimes
I'll take a plastic Coke bottle or two, and use those for markers.
With a little water or sand in the bottom, they won't blow around,
and will just bounce off if you do manage to brush one. If you
need more visibility, a bit of paint dropped in and shaken around
will quickly fix that. I always wear all the gear anyway, so if
I DO go down at 20 MPH or under (about all you're going to
see in parking lot practice), I'm not too worried for me.
Biggest concern is dinging the bike; so far, I've always caught
myself before putting it down in a lot (and supposedly the
frame sliders would keep things from getting too dinged, but
still....).

Bob M.
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

On Oct 1, 3:27 pm, Road Glidin' Don <d.lan... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 11:41 am, oasysco <wilderkom... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> > basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
> > you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
> > bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?
>
> Not really. I think most riders just continue honing their skills as
> they go along.
>
> Travelling down a street with no cars behind and the light turns
> yellow at the point-near-no-return, you can do a full-emergency-stop
> (important to not do this with a car or other bike right on your
> tail!). What's better is that you will be practicing such stops at
> realistic riding speeds (stopping from 40 or 60 mph is a whole
> different kettle of fish than stopping at parking lot speeds).
>
> You can practice swerving plenty by avoiding manholes and debris on
> the road. When on the road yourself, you can also weave back and
> forth at all kinds of speeds (including highway speeds). Good
> practice and, again, more representative of real riding conditions and
> speeds.
>
> Tight turns? Lots of opportunities for that - even as a show-off
> thing. You know, your buddies are paddle-footing their bikes around,
> while you execute the turn-around with feet on pegs... grinning your
> ass off as you do it.
>
> There's so many opportunities to sharpen your skills with everyday
> riding, I don't see the use in going to an abandoned parking lot.
> Maybe when you're first starting off, but not after that.
>
> Seems to have worked for me. Emergency-stopping for a drunken
> pedestrian trying to commit suicide about 5 years ago. The whole
> thing happened at 60 mph. and involved maximum, straight-line
> stopping, then releasing the brakes and swerving sharply - all things
> I practiced on a regular basis in the ways I described. The bike
> didn't go down, I didn't loose control and avoided a head-on collision
> (something probably saved the woman's life and possibly my own as
> well).
>
> When you need it, you'll really need it. Based on what I've observed
> in other riders, precious few know what it takes to emergency stop
> their motorcycle at highway speeds. Unlike city speeds, it takes a
> huge amount of grip force to the front brake lever (on an older
> Harley, at least). Not many people have practiced that before the
> first time they needed to do it, I suspect.

I couldn't agree more - practice on the road when traffic is clear for
certain maneuvers. Also agree that parking lot practice is more for
the newb or possibly the person who has a new bike and wants to get to
know it a little better.

Greg
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

"oasysco" <wilderkommen.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1191260518.049603.192130@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>I think everybody agrees that bikes themselves aren't to blame for
> crashes. That is, bikes are capable of far more than most riders can
> deliver and if you wipe out, it's usually not because of the bike.
>
> Here, I'm talking about slower maneuvers like doing figure 8's in a
> single parking space (as opposed to the two wide they give you in the
> MSF).
>
> There was a link here recently to a site of good riding tips,I think
> from a biker cop. Anyway, he talked about the extreme left and right
> handlebar positions to perform a little dip instead of a wide turn and
> duck-walking a bike back into a parking space.
>
> And then there was discussion on steering maneuvers... you know rush
> headlong at an object, hard brake and take evasive action at the last
> possible moment. In the MSF, the instructor calls our right or left
> for which way you are supposed to go before hitting a barrier, so it's
> more reactive than doing it all yourself where you know ahead of time
> which way you are going.
>
> And then you have "riding circles around fill-in-the-blank". You could
> actually ride in a tight circle with the handlebars pulled to the
> extreme right or left - you know, to the point where riders might feel
> like they'll tip over.
>
> Or swervnig in and out of cones even to the point of dragging pegs.
>
> Practicing these things seems a good way to really get to know your
> bike... to know how far you can lean before you'll tip over; to know
> how the bikes feels in a sharp evasive turn; to know your limits and
> what you need to improve.
>
> It's one thing to go thru the MSF as most seem to have, but it's quite
> another to have to put your practice to the test in real life
> situations. And it's still another to routinely practice those
> maneuvers so that when the time comes, you fall back on your training/
> practice without thinking about it.
>
> Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
> you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
> bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?
>
> Greg

Came through El Paso, by myself.. earlier this year.. Wanted to take a break
and kill some time, so I got in touch with one of the old brothers, there..
BTW
he's one of the El Paso motorcops.. He was kinda on/off duty and we had
lunch.. He invited me to ride back over to work with him.. and I thought, it
was
a little strange.. he was wearing the cops pants and boots, but he had on a
civilian type shirt..

When we got there.. it was the training classes for the motorcops and man..
I stood there with my mouth open.. Those guys looked like they were doing
u-turns in the space of a parking slot.. I've always know that motorcops
were
excellent bike handlers, but some of the manuevers those guys were pract-
icing caused my eyes to bug out.. Their training classes are so much ad-
vanced over the typical MSF courses, it isn't even fair to compare them..

Too bad.. they only offer the classes once or twice each year.. and they are
only classes for law enforcement .. There were guys there from all over
Texas..
so I guess El Paso must have something going on. One of the officers from
Austin and me kinda buddied up a little bit.. He seemed to be one of the
better ones in the class, although all of them were superb bike handlers..

He'd just come back from a crash and evidently his department made them
re-take the course if they went down or something..

I'd sure like to figure out how to wrangle my way into one of those
courses..
Awesome day and I sure met some of the LEO good guys..

Bill Walker
>
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

rb608 wrote:

> On my daily commute, one winding rural road has occasional manhole
> covers that are depressed below the road surface, just far enough to
> give you a decent bump when you hit 'em. In all the years I've ridden
> this road, I've not bothered to remember where these are

OTOH I have a mental database of known hazards on the main routes
I take. This includes not only road surface irregularities but awkward
intersections, hidden driveways, badly-designed merge lanes,
suicidal on-ramps, etc.

The riding scene here is chaos. It consists of a dozen or so
municipalities with a hodgepodge road/bridge/tunnel system
cobbled together into what they call the "Lower Mainland".

It's got roads meeting at odd angles, uncontrolled one-lane
bridges, railway tracks at bike-crashing angles across roads
(and that can strand thousands of people if a stopped train happens
to block the only crossing) and you-can't-get-there-from-here's.

One time two cities got into a dispute over whether fire engines
from City A could cross a small (one-lane) bridge in City B to reach
an isolated neighborhood in City A. City B even closed the road
to the bridge. I don't know how that got resolved, but I think
the provincial gov't had to intervene.

Luckily, I used to share a house with a taxi driver who taught
me short cuts and other time-saving techniques.

(Btw he bought and restored an old Suzuki water buffalo).

Sean_Q_
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

On Oct 1, 1:41 pm, oasysco <wilderkom....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It's one thing to go thru the MSF as most seem to have, but it's quite
> another to have to put your practice to the test in real life
> situations. And it's still another to routinely practice those
> maneuvers so that when the time comes, you fall back on your training/
> practice without thinking about it.

Excellent point.
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

On Oct 1, 2:27 pm, Road Glidin' Don <d.lan....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 11:41 am, oasysco <wilderkom....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> > basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
> > you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
> > bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?
>
> Not really. I think most riders just continue honing their skills as
> they go along.

Most maybe. Not all.

I make it a point to get to a parking lot to practice low speed
maneuvers at least a couple times a year. It amazes me how much
difference an hour of focused practice can make. I did the same with
my wife too (getting her out to practice her low speed maneuvers.)

I also practice emergency braking, either in a lot or on an empty
road.

So far I haven't gone down doing this. But I usually work in an open
lot with no obstacles. If I start to tip past my level of comfort a
bit of throttle pulls me out.

I also take classes like ERC or "Total Control." Maybe one day I'll
work up to a track class or track day.

-hank
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

"oasysco" <wilderkommen DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1191260518.049603.192130@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>I think everybody agrees that bikes themselves aren't to blame for
> crashes. That is, bikes are capable of far more than most riders can
> deliver and if you wipe out, it's usually not because of the bike.
>
> Here, I'm talking about slower maneuvers like doing figure 8's in a
> single parking space (as opposed to the two wide they give you in the
> MSF).
>
> There was a link here recently to a site of good riding tips,I think
> from a biker cop. Anyway, he talked about the extreme left and right
> handlebar positions to perform a little dip instead of a wide turn and
> duck-walking a bike back into a parking space.
>
> And then there was discussion on steering maneuvers... you know rush
> headlong at an object, hard brake and take evasive action at the last
> possible moment. In the MSF, the instructor calls our right or left
> for which way you are supposed to go before hitting a barrier, so it's
> more reactive than doing it all yourself where you know ahead of time
> which way you are going.
>
> And then you have "riding circles around fill-in-the-blank". You could
> actually ride in a tight circle with the handlebars pulled to the
> extreme right or left - you know, to the point where riders might feel
> like they'll tip over.
>
> Or swervnig in and out of cones even to the point of dragging pegs.
>
> Practicing these things seems a good way to really get to know your
> bike... to know how far you can lean before you'll tip over; to know
> how the bikes feels in a sharp evasive turn; to know your limits and
> what you need to improve.
>
> It's one thing to go thru the MSF as most seem to have, but it's quite
> another to have to put your practice to the test in real life
> situations. And it's still another to routinely practice those
> maneuvers so that when the time comes, you fall back on your training/
> practice without thinking about it.
>
> Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
> you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
> bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?
>
> Greg
>

Yes, I practice those maneuvers all the time, seriously. Especially when Cat
is paddling her Buell Blast to make a U-turn or to get around a gas pump or
some other stationary obstacle.. You'll find me doing donuts and figure
eights on my Road King in a tiny patch of parking lot right in front of her.

That REALLY pisses her off.


Mostly I work on keeping my head focused on where I want the bike to go in
the shortest possible turn. I find, as in Championship Ballroom Dancing,
that my head can be my worst enemy.

http://www.ridelikeapro.com/

Thumper
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

"Bill Walker" <bill.walker2 DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
news:gUaMi.1142$6Y5.865@trnddc07...
>
> "oasysco" <wilderkommen DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1191260518.049603.192130@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>I think everybody agrees that bikes themselves aren't to blame for
>> crashes. That is, bikes are capable of far more than most riders can
>> deliver and if you wipe out, it's usually not because of the bike.
>>
>> Here, I'm talking about slower maneuvers like doing figure 8's in a
>> single parking space (as opposed to the two wide they give you in the
>> MSF).
>>
>> There was a link here recently to a site of good riding tips,I think
>> from a biker cop. Anyway, he talked about the extreme left and right
>> handlebar positions to perform a little dip instead of a wide turn and
>> duck-walking a bike back into a parking space.
>>
>> And then there was discussion on steering maneuvers... you know rush
>> headlong at an object, hard brake and take evasive action at the last
>> possible moment. In the MSF, the instructor calls our right or left
>> for which way you are supposed to go before hitting a barrier, so it's
>> more reactive than doing it all yourself where you know ahead of time
>> which way you are going.
>>
>> And then you have "riding circles around fill-in-the-blank". You could
>> actually ride in a tight circle with the handlebars pulled to the
>> extreme right or left - you know, to the point where riders might feel
>> like they'll tip over.
>>
>> Or swervnig in and out of cones even to the point of dragging pegs.
>>
>> Practicing these things seems a good way to really get to know your
>> bike... to know how far you can lean before you'll tip over; to know
>> how the bikes feels in a sharp evasive turn; to know your limits and
>> what you need to improve.
>>
>> It's one thing to go thru the MSF as most seem to have, but it's quite
>> another to have to put your practice to the test in real life
>> situations. And it's still another to routinely practice those
>> maneuvers so that when the time comes, you fall back on your training/
>> practice without thinking about it.
>>
>> Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
>> basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
>> you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
>> bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?
>>
>> Greg
>
> Came through El Paso, by myself.. earlier this year.. Wanted to take a
> break
> and kill some time, so I got in touch with one of the old brothers,
> there.. BTW
> he's one of the El Paso motorcops.. He was kinda on/off duty and we had
> lunch.. He invited me to ride back over to work with him.. and I thought,
> it was
> a little strange.. he was wearing the cops pants and boots, but he had on
> a
> civilian type shirt..
>
> When we got there.. it was the training classes for the motorcops and
> man..
> I stood there with my mouth open.. Those guys looked like they were doing
> u-turns in the space of a parking slot.. I've always know that motorcops
> were
> excellent bike handlers, but some of the manuevers those guys were pract-
> icing caused my eyes to bug out.. Their training classes are so much ad-
> vanced over the typical MSF courses, it isn't even fair to compare them..
>
> Too bad.. they only offer the classes once or twice each year.. and they
> are
> only classes for law enforcement .. There were guys there from all over
> Texas..
> so I guess El Paso must have something going on. One of the officers from
> Austin and me kinda buddied up a little bit.. He seemed to be one of the
> better ones in the class, although all of them were superb bike handlers..
>
> He'd just come back from a crash and evidently his department made them
> re-take the course if they went down or something..
>
> I'd sure like to figure out how to wrangle my way into one of those
> courses..
> Awesome day and I sure met some of the LEO good guys..
>
> Bill Walker
>>

I have a high level of respect for motor officers.

Thumper
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th.. 

oasysco <wilderkommen DeleteThis @yahoo.com> writes:

> Does anybody sharpen their skills on slower manuevers on any kind of
> basis, say on a course or a parking lot? What do you practice? What do
> you do when you go down or do you have enough protective gear on the
> bike (and you) that the effects of a slow down are minimized?

Would actually using the skills count?

http://tinyurl.com/3xf3a2

Some low speed maneuvers were required to get to the mountain as well
as going up it. Going down the road is even more fun.

--
Ethics are so annoying
I avoid them on principle
 >> Stay informed about: All this talk of riding circles, does anybody really do th..