One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"

"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun RemoveThis @cox.net> wrote in message
news:p3fNi.12977$495.10696@newsfe22.lga...
>
> "j doll" <jdoll RemoveThis @jvlnet.com> wrote in message
> news:2qGdnVskn6HqwJjanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@jvlnet.com...
>>
>> Yeah I'm sure that with a bit of wizard work you could get the current
>> bikes to bump start.
>> But as they sit right now you can't very easily. You noticed the start
>> carts that are universal now? Nobody bumps their MotoGP to life, even the
>> mechanics don't bother
>
> Virtually all automobiles now come with electric window lifts, but it's
> not because the passengers can't turn the crank.

Boy you are clueless. Getting a start cart out isn't quite the same thing.
It's a hell of a lot simpler to bump a bike then to get a special bit of
equipment out. Instead now you need 2-3 guys to fire up the bike. Before it
was a one man deal.
If the mechanics were as lazy as you imply, where are the start carts for
the 125's and 250's?
If you could
>
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

"Mark N" <menusbaum.DeleteThis@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13gbcutsqpn69df@corp.supernews.com...
>
> So I think what we actually have in WSB is anything (anyone) goes
> real-world racing, but in GP we now have maximum rider weights, but
> imposed by nationality and background and not rules. I mean, it's just
> amazing how quickly these guys are getting so small - just go back to 2004
> and look at Hofmann, Barros, Gibernau, Roberts, Hodgson, Xaus, Checa,
> Bayliss, Byrne, Biaggi, all whom would be in the top third of the next
> class in terms of weight. And look at the one new guy from SB compared to
> the three from 250, with their average weight being more than 30 lbs less
> than his.
>
> Just staggering...

So why don't the AMA create a World Series for fat Americans. Perhaps they
could race Harley trikes.
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

Julian Bond wrote:
> "Dick" wrote:
>> So why don't the AMA create a World Series for fat Americans. Perhaps
>> they
>> could race Harley trikes.

Ah, the "lay off the donuts, boys" defense. So why don't you create a
newsgroup for stupid guys who hide their heads in the sand and can't
recognize reality when it stares them in the face? Oh, I guess you don't
need to, you already found one...

> Heh! I wonder what the weights were for next year's racers back when
> they were all 21?

Ah, the king of the sand-hiders speaks. Are you suggesting that guys
like Hayden, Hopkins, Edwards, Toseland weighed around 125 pounds when
they were 21? They were all on the world scene then, and you should know
they certainly didn't, not even close. I did see a website from when
Rossi was that age and it listed him at 59kg, which might help explain
how such a tubby boy managed to make it to MotoGP through 125/250. Now
there's a guy who really needs to go on a diet. And are you suggesting
that guys like Dovizioso, Lorenzo, Pedrosa will weigh 150 pounds by the
time they reach age 25? Right. Newsflash, Julian - Hopkins is only nine
months older than de Angelis, and two months younger than Elias.

It all sounds like Pablo, the inventor of the "donut defense", saying
Roberts Sr. was as small as Pedrosa when he went over to Europe. In his
dreams.
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

On Oct 5, 10:38 am, Mark N <menusb....RemoveThis@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
> Julian Bond wrote:
> > "Dick" wrote:
> >> So why don't the AMA create a World Series for fat Americans. Perhaps
> >> they
> >> could race Harley trikes.
>
> Ah, the "lay off the donuts, boys" defense. So why don't you create a
> newsgroup for stupid guys who hide their heads in the sand and can't
> recognize reality when it stares them in the face? Oh, I guess you don't
> need to, you already found one...
>
> > Heh! I wonder what the weights were for next year's racers back when
> > they were all 21?
>
> Ah, the king of the sand-hiders speaks. Are you suggesting that guys
> like Hayden, Hopkins, Edwards, Toseland weighed around 125 pounds when
> they were 21? They were all on the world scene then, and you should know
> they certainly didn't, not even close. I did see a website from when
> Rossi was that age and it listed him at 59kg, which might help explain
> how such a tubby boy managed to make it to MotoGP through 125/250. Now
> there's a guy who really needs to go on a diet. And are you suggesting
> that guys like Dovizioso, Lorenzo, Pedrosa will weigh 150 pounds by the
> time they reach age 25? Right. Newsflash, Julian - Hopkins is only nine
> months older than de Angelis, and two months younger than Elias.
>
> It all sounds like Pablo, the inventor of the "donut defense", saying
> Roberts Sr. was as small as Pedrosa when he went over to Europe. In his
> dreams.

Mark, what's the problem you're trying to solve? That rider weight is
becoming more of an issue? It used to be an issue before too, just
not to the same extent perhaps. So what? Physical attributes
(fitness, weight, height, etc.) are a major factor in virtually any
form of athleticism on a professional level and certainly motorcycle
racing is quite physical. Just because different racing series are
currently resulting in different average physiology of their riders
doesn't mean that one is more unfair or worse than the other. They're
just different. Superbike and GP racing have demanded different
attributes for a long time. If I'm not mistaken, this large cross-
over trend of riders going between the series is a fairly recent
thing. Look at Rich Oliver -- the guy dominated 250's all his life,
but could never quite jell with a production bike.

I don't quite get your earlier point about racial divide or
favoritism. Not all Europeans are smaller than Americans. And even
if they are smaller on average and that happens to be a good thing for
a racer, so what? Being small doesn't guarantee success. On a bike,
one has to also be strong. So while you can be light and compact, if
you don't step up your physical fitness program more than your bigger
oppenents, you won't last 5 laps at that pace.
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

Richard <rlmccann RemoveThis @hotmail.com> Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:29:58
>So why don't the AMA create a World Series for fat Americans. Perhaps they
>could race Harley trikes.

Heh! I wonder what the weights were for next year's racers back when
they were all 21?

--
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 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

Alexey wrote:
> Mark, what's the problem you're trying to solve? That rider weight is
> becoming more of an issue? It used to be an issue before too, just
> not to the same extent perhaps.

Not remotely as much. As I've said repeatedly, this is an entirely new
phenomenon, as far as I know there's never been a premier class
champion below about 65kg / 145lbs, until now with Stoner at 128lbs.
And about two-thirds of next year's grid will be made up of riders
lighter than that historical cutoff.

So what? Physical attributes
> (fitness, weight, height, etc.) are a major factor in virtually any
> form of athleticism on a professional level and certainly motorcycle
> racing is quite physical. Just because different racing series are
> currently resulting in different average physiology of their riders
> doesn't mean that one is more unfair or worse than the other. They're
> just different.

That depends on what is driving the boat, and it's not at all clear
that what has happened here is that the bikes developed to a point
where smaller, lighter riders were at some fundamental advantage, so
they moved to the top of the class and teams responded by hiring more
of them. In fact that's not at all what's happened here. What I see
happening is that historically (meaning going back only 10-15 years)
the teams hired from 250; in fact, in 2002 only one of the top 14
riders in points didn't come from 250 (Abe). There was in retrospect a
very short period at the start of MotoGP that teams also hired from
SB, but now that's reverting back to the way it was before. In the
meantime, 250 started hiring from 125 almost exclusively, which wasn't
really the case historically.

What that means is riders coming into MotoGP today mostly have started
in 125, and it seems to succeeed in that class you have to be very
small, even with the bike-rider weight minimum. And 250 doesn't have
that minimum, so size/weight continues to matter there. In theory it
may not matter as much in MotoGP, but that almost doesn't matter if
the only guys who can get in the door are under 60 kgs.

Superbike and GP racing have demanded different
> attributes for a long time. If I'm not mistaken, this large cross-
> over trend of riders going between the series is a fairly recent
> thing. Look at Rich Oliver -- the guy dominated 250's all his life,
> but could never quite jell with a production bike.

Not that long - if you look at the American-Australian dominance era
from '78 through '98, most of the premier class championships were won
by ex-SB riders, and only one was won by a guy from 250, Franco Uncini
in '82. The flow from 250 to 500/MotoGP is a fairly recent phenomenon,
and from 125 to 250 to MotoGP even more recent. And I think a large
part of that is political - MotoGP and its teams want riders from the
countries who support the sport the most, for financial reasons, and
that has meant trying to find a way to get Spanish, Italian and
Japanese riders into those seats. That way has mostly been through
250, which has been dominated by EuroMed and Japanese factories and
teams, and 250 riders have a leg up when it comes to experience in the
series.

What these trends inevitably lead to are bikes that are shaped around
the guys that ride them. So MotoGP bikes have been and will be
developed with smaller riders with 125/250 skills in mind. Now we have
bikes that have to be ridden with wheels in line and with high corner
speed, and all that sliding around sems to be history. So who does
that favor? And the racing has become relatively boring - do we blame
that on electronics and 800cc bikes and the advanced state of the
tires, or should we also be blaming that on the guys riding and
developing the bikes? It's chicken-and-egg stuff, I think.

> I don't quite get your earlier point about racial divide or
> favoritism. Not all Europeans are smaller than Americans. And even
> if they are smaller on average and that happens to be a good thing for
> a racer, so what? Being small doesn't guarantee success. On a bike,
> one has to also be strong. So while you can be light and compact, if
> you don't step up your physical fitness program more than your bigger
> oppenents, you won't last 5 laps at that pace.

That as a general position makes sense, but it really doesn''t play in
this real world. If you look at the AMA, it's fairly clear that these
things matter, and we see guys at 145-170 pounds at the front, while
the smallest guy, DiSalvo, can't seem to do much more than the odd
fast lap and has been a big disappointment. But in GP today you don't
see anything like that, and the average MotoGP rider in 2008 may well
be smaller than the average rider in 250 only 8-10 years ago. Back
then Harada and Capirossi were the midgets in 250; today they would be
just part of the crowd, if not on the larger end.

And as I agrued with Kveck the last couple weeks, I think when size
starts to matter that much, we inevitably lose talent, the kind of
talent that generated championships for the last 50-60 years, the kind
of talent that comes in a 145-165 pound body. So the midgets roll in,
but 160-pound Spies remains outside looking in, and it's not at all
certain that he won't remain there forever. Probably not, because he
rides for Suzuki and Dorna wants some Americans. Americans to create
interest in the US that is, and perhaps to win the occasional GP here,
but not to dominate they way they did in the '80s - the winning in
Europe and the championships are to go to their home boys, because
that's what pays off for them. It's not personal, it's business...
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

Alexey <inline_four.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:09:07
>Mark, what's the problem you're trying to solve? That rider weight is
>becoming more of an issue?

I don't think its about that at all. I think that's a symptom for what
he sees as an artificial career path based on 125->250->MotoGP rather
than Superports->Superbike->MotoGP. One which is biased towards 125,250
for all sorts of reasons.

Let's imagine for a moment there were 24 seats on the MotoGP grid.
(Honda 6, Ducati, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki 4, Roberts 2). Who in the
current crop would you leave out, who else would you give a shot?

De Angelis is the only one I'd leave out. Possibly Nakano. I'd add
Spies. I have a real hard time thinking who else to add in. And finding
5 is really hard. I think it's actually easier with WSB and WSS. There's
a whole bunch of riders currently in national championships that ought
to get a shot at those championships. But that road is now being blocked
by ex-MotoGP riders.

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 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

Mark N muses:

>There's almost no good
> way to make any sort of realistic judgment of anyone in 250 these
> days, becaues there's no standard at all to measure them against.

You really don't understand how racing works, do you?


>. Or what Bayliss' might
> have been, had Fogarty not gone down in 2000, Bostrom not stumbled out
> of the gate, Bayliss not crashed at Daytona, Sears not been cancelled
> and Kocinski not been available.

Wow that's quite a list of 'what-if's' to get to some demon dream of
yours.

For the record, I think there's a fine list of guys that deserve a
chance
in MotoGP. To bad there aren't many spots open.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

Mark N asks:

> And, for the record, who are those guys? Just saying "there's a fine
> list" means nothing.


Sofuoglu, Charpentier, Kallio, Spies, Dovisioso, Lorenzo. RL Hayden,
Pitt, Rea. Those are the first ones that come to mind without
really studying the issue. I'm sure there are others hiding in
National series for instance that I'm unaware of. Guys that
follow the Hopkins model and need somebody to take a big
honking chance on them. But that's not going to happen this
year - deserving a ride and having a ride available are two
different things.

Mark N's wishful dreaming notwithstanding.


>what if Mike S.
> claimed that little guys don't have any advantage in racing because of
> size,

Not what I claimed. I contend, and the ruling body and teams
seem to agree with me, that in MotoGP class, smaller riders
have advantages and disadvantages that in general even out
so that larger (not Large but larger) riders are not at a
disadvantage.
No rule change is necessary as in this class, it's a non-issue.
In other classes and forms of racing, maybe and maybe not an
issue. In 125 roadracing, almost certainly an issue. In MX1,
certainly not. MX2 probably not.

Too bad there's not a game programmer handy. I guarantee this
is all modeled, or could be, in some of the games my kid is playing
these days.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

sturd wrote:

>> what if Mike S.
>> claimed that little guys don't have any advantage in racing because of
>> size,
>
> Not what I claimed. I contend, and the ruling body and teams
> seem to agree with me, that in MotoGP class, smaller riders
> have advantages and disadvantages that in general even out
> so that larger (not Large but larger) riders are not at a
> disadvantage.

"SEEM to agree" with you is about as far as I would go. Yes, I do not
think they believe the size thing is an issue, but for completely
different reason than you suggest. I think it's because doing something
about the problem would be making it tougher for EuroMeds to get into
MotoGP and succeed there, and the same for riders in their own support
classes (which really is the same thing, when you think about it). Why
would they institute a rule based on fairness if it's contrary to their
real interests?

> No rule change is necessary as in this class, it's a non-issue.
> In other classes and forms of racing, maybe and maybe not an
> issue. In 125 roadracing, almost certainly an issue. In MX1,
> certainly not. MX2 probably not.

So why will next year's MotoGP class almost certainly be the smallest,
lightest in the history of the sport, and smaller than any in AMA SB and
WSB as well? There is a reason for that, right, it's not just some
random occurrence? And what happened to your 160-pound optimum size? I
know it slipped down to about 150 pounds at some point, but there's
Pedrosa running at the front at 40 pounds less than that. So now there
is no optimum size?

While I grant a big part of the problem originates in 250, it doesn't
quite seem that you're convinced that size matters even there. If not,
then why have the class champions there been south of 150 pounds for as
far back as I can remember? Not necessarily the 110-130 pound guys
running at the front these days, but small guys none the less.

But I think size does matter in GP today, because of the nature of the
bikes. I seriously doubt that the rulemakers managed to stumble on the
perfect formula that is completely size-independent, and remained so
even with the change from 990s to 800s. It's obvious to me that 250s
reward small size in a fairly serious way, and so do 125s even with a
combined rider-bike minimum. [Which doesn't do much, btw, since the old
bike minimum was 80kg and the combined minimum is 136kg, which means
56kg for a rider fully dressed in his gear. That means even Pedrosa
wouldn't get ballasted, which to me is just nuts.] SBs may be a tough
nut for the midgets to crack, given that they are probably a bit bigger,
weigh about 35 pounds more, don't have the idealized geometry, and don't
have the same level of electronic controls. And maybe not. But MotoGP
bikes? I think they do favor smaller size, at least down to some
baseline level. To this point it's not clear that anyone has hit that yet.

In any case, I just can't fathom why someone would be entirely
ambivalent about the notion of jockeys on bikes. Especially when
something can be done about it, and rather easily. Me, I find it truly
amazing that it's something that no one seems to talk about. Until I
think about who that would be, that is - the status quo in MotoGP, from
Dora down to the beat writers, seems to have a stake in the EuroMidgets
and their success, so total silence would probably be the expectation.

> Too bad there's not a game programmer handy. I guarantee this
> is all modeled, or could be, in some of the games my kid is playing
> these days.

I seriously doubt it. Games model observed behaviors, and some of them
do it very well (GPL comes to mind), but that doesn't mean they're
really based on the actual physics at play.
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

sturd <mikesturdevant127.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:29:03
>Sofuoglu, Charpentier, Kallio, Spies, Dovisioso, Lorenzo. RL Hayden,
>Pitt, Rea. Those are the first ones that come to mind without
>really studying the issue. I'm sure there are others hiding in
>National series for instance that I'm unaware of. Guys that
>follow the Hopkins model and need somebody to take a big
>honking chance on them. But that's not going to happen this
>year - deserving a ride and having a ride available are two
>different things.

- Sofuoglu Will get his chance, but he's got to do Superbike first
- Charpentier has not looked like a winner for a while now. And he's
getting old
- Kallio. Hmmm. Perhaps.
- Spies, Yes. Go and race at world level as soon as possible.
- Dovizioso. I'm not sure he quite has the killer instinct of the others
but he's so far ahead of any other Honda rider that there's something
there. He looks to be close to Dani P's ability.
- Lorenzo Looks to be at least as good as the other 250 champion
graduates in MotoGP were at the same stage.
- RL Hayden. If there's a place, give him a shot. Or at least more wild
cards and testing.
- Pitt. He was just showing his potential when he got knifed in the
back. Then he tries a no hope team. Like RLH, wildcards, testing, and a
ride if there's room.
- Chaz Davies. Wild cards, testing, a ride if there's room.
- Rea. Not yet. He should have got a World Supers ride next year.
- Kiyonari. Go and win or come second in World Supers. Then let's talk.
- The Bostroms. Lovely guys, but. Ben was good once, but he hasn't shown
if for years and he's not getting younger. Same goes for Eric.
- Haslam. Get to World Supers. You're not going anywhere in BSB. But
you're not good enough to race in MotoGP and you've already had your one
shot. Like Hodgson you really have to prove it the second time around.
And you're not doing that.

- Checa, Barros Go home. We're bored of you.
- Haga, Bayliss, Corser, Biaggi, Mladin, Lavilla, Hodgson. Sorry guys
but you got your one shot and it didn't work out. It may not have even
been your fault, but you're all getting old. We'd rather have new blood.

- Sykes, Crutchlow, Camier, Hill. Get into WSB or WSS as soon as
possible. Keep moving up.
- Are there any AMA riders not mentioned that should go to MotoGP or WSB
now? I don't know.
- I can't see any other 250 riders that should move up. Bautista has to
win the championship first. Barbera is an idiot. Aoyama (Hiroshi) looks
to be very close to Kallio but is perhaps too nice. Both of them are a
bit stuck because the KTM doesn't quite give them enough to show what
they're capable of.

I really hope Airwaves Ducati move to WSB and another team takes on the
Ducati factory role in the UK. And I hope MV find a way of racing WSB.

There is a problem here with old racers who are still fast on the way
down blocking the younger racers on the way up. There's only so many
good rides in the lower championships. It will be a shame if WSB is so
full of ex-MotoGP riders that there's no room for new riders to make an
impression as second rider in a top team.

--
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 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

Julian Bond lists:

> - Charpentier has not looked like a winner for a while now. And he's
> getting old

He's been hurt but you're right, he's getting old.


> - The Bostroms. Lovely guys, but. Ben was good once, but he hasn't shown
> if for years and he's not getting younger. Same goes for Eric.

Both nice guys but Ben especially needs to find another profession
and give some kids a chance.


> - Checa, Barros Go home. We're bored of you.

I'd add Tamada.


> - Sykes, Crutchlow, Camier, Hill. Get into WSB or WSS as soon as
> possible. Keep moving up.

These BSB guys?


> - Are there any AMA riders not mentioned that should go to MotoGP or WSB
> now? I don't know.

Maybe, not immediately though. Herrin is getting there. Hayes but
he's getting old. Why he doesn't have an AMA superbike ride is
beyond me. I would have said Danny Eslick a year ago but he's done
nothing to prove himself ready. There's a couple flat trackers, Mees
being one, that I'd like to see on a superbike but don't expect it
to happen.

There's a few AMA riders that should go home. Besides BBostrom
there's T Hayden and the punk (DiSalvo).


> There is a problem here with old racers who are still fast on the way
> down blocking the younger racers on the way up.

Isn't that the way it's always been? At least since the money got
really good - good enough even top 10 guys are looking
at never working for a living after retiring from racing.



Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem" 

"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.DeleteThis@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:PFnmJICAjICHFAm$@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
> - Are there any AMA riders not mentioned that should go to MotoGP or WSB
> now?

Heh, there's deserving USAin's that can't even get a SB look here, much
less in Europe...
 >> Stay informed about: One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"