newbie to riding - looking for info - tia

In article <BUJve.96609$9A2.10297@edtnps89>, sj RemoveThis @sj.com
says...
 > hi all,
 >
 > i'm a newbie to riding, and am located in vancouver, bc
 > can anyone suggest faq/websites that cover items like what gear to get, what
 > to get a s first bike recommendations etc

1) Budget about $750 for a rider training course. They
are worth every penny. (http://www.cyclelogics.ca/ is a
good place - Randy is a thorough instructor, and you'll
learn stuff you didn't even know you didn't know)

2) While taking the course, try as many different style
bikes as you can. Many courses have example bikes from
each genre for you to get the feel of.

3) Don't fall into the "you need 600cc+" mentality -
especially with sport bikes. 50hp is plenty for a first
bike. More is probably dangerous.

4) Check out the difference that the engine size makes on
your insurance rates. ICBC has 0-100, 101-400, 401-750(?),
etc. breakpoints. Take your insurance costs into
consideration when choosing a bike.

5) According to a UK study, the helmet is the #1 piece of
safety equipment followed by boots, pants, gloves and
jacket. This is based on the probability of injury, and
the impact that an injury has on your life. (ie: losing
use of a foot/leg will impact your life more than the loss
of a hand/arm) Note how this differs from the usual buying
order of gear.

6) Check <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml</a> for
more info

--
Cam<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

In can.rec.motorcycles,
Cam Penner <cam.pennerATpleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems.com DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <BUJve.96609$9A2.10297@edtnps89>, sj DeleteThis @sj.com
> says...
> > hi all,
> >
> > i'm a newbie to riding, and am located in vancouver, bc
> > can anyone suggest faq/websites that cover items like what gear to get, what
> > to get a s first bike recommendations etc
>
> 1) Budget about $750 for a rider training course. They
> are worth every penny. (http://www.cyclelogics.ca/ is a
> good place - Randy is a thorough instructor, and you'll
> learn stuff you didn't even know you didn't know)

This is great advice (and seriously, I think starting out on the
bike without a course like this is just asking for an experience
which will turn you off your new bike right away). $750 sounds pretty
high to (Ontario) me, though -- mine here was only $320. The
BCSC course is the standard one that in the USA is an "MSF course".
Info here:

http://www.safetycouncil.bc.ca/

That said you might find that there's a waiting list by now, and
the more expensive courses are less full.

> 2) While taking the course, try as many different style
> bikes as you can. Many courses have example bikes from
> each genre for you to get the feel of.

Doubly this. I meant to do this during my course but didn't, because
some of the varieties got spread out in more advanced groups, but
even then, spinning around on a Rebel during a break convinced me that I
*didn't* want a cruiser. In fact I ended up buying a slightly bigger
version of the Suzuki standard I took the course on.

> 3) Don't fall into the "you need 600cc+" mentality -
> especially with sport bikes. 50hp is plenty for a first
> bike. More is probably dangerous.

And especially this I'm 6'1", 200 lbs and riding an '81 GS250T.
It's not really enough for freeway riding, but if I wanted to ride the
superslab around here I'd get in my car. What it *is* is a bike that I
know I can push hard without scaring myself and on which I know that
getting more out of it requires improving my bike handling, not just
twisting harder.

Before motorcycling it was flying lessons for me. I kept telling myself
that the Cessna 152 I was learning in was too small a plane, that I
really needed to get checked out on the 172. Why, the 152 only sat two,
and even then you couldn't fly with two people and full tanks without
going over max gross weight, and only cruises at 100 knots -- the 172
seats four, has practical carrying capacity and cruises at a
trip-friendly 140 knots. But the more I looked into it, the only benefit
I'd see right away was paying more for the aircraft, paying more for
fuel, and having to think about how to fly *this plane* rather than
continuing to work on how to *fly*. I ended up sticking with the 152
and enjoying knowing that I was developing my own skills rather than
just getting used to the plane.

I'm finding the same thing with the bike. I saved a lot on the purchase
price, obviously, and I'll be able to sell it for what I paid or so a
year from now. Insurance is much cheaper (important since I'm not quite
30 yet!), and if I drop it I won't have to pay to replace a lot of
plastic.

Will I outgrow it? Oh, yeah, definitely, probably by the end of next
season. But that's fine, because by then I'll have two seasons' worth
of riding to really let me know what sort of riding I like to do, and
I'll be able to pick out my first >$1000 "real" bike knowing what to
expect and what to look out for on a secondhand motorcycle.

(Someone who wants to drive Indy cars starts with karting, too. There's
a lot to be said for getting to the point where the only way you can
get more out of the machine is by knowing how to push it.)

-Rich

--
Rich Lafferty --------------+-----------------------------------------------
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Save the Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus!
http://www.lafferty.ca/ | http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus.html
rich DeleteThis @lafferty.ca -----------+-----------------------------------------------
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

In article <slrndc17r0.a2b.rich+can-rec-
motorcycles.TakeThisOut@localhost.localdomain>, rich+can-rec-
motorcycles.TakeThisOut@lafferty.ca says...
> In can.rec.motorcycles,
> Cam Penner <cam.pennerATpleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems.com.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <BUJve.96609$9A2.10297@edtnps89>, sj.TakeThisOut@sj.com
> > says...
> > > hi all,
> > >
> > > i'm a newbie to riding, and am located in vancouver, bc
> > > can anyone suggest faq/websites that cover items like what gear to get, what
> > > to get a s first bike recommendations etc
> >
> > 1) Budget about $750 for a rider training course. They
> > are worth every penny. (http://www.cyclelogics.ca/ is a
> > good place - Randy is a thorough instructor, and you'll
> > learn stuff you didn't even know you didn't know)
>
> This is great advice (and seriously, I think starting out on the
> bike without a course like this is just asking for an experience
> which will turn you off your new bike right away). $750 sounds pretty
> high to (Ontario) me, though -- mine here was only $320. The
> BCSC course is the standard one that in the USA is an "MSF course".
> Info here:
>
> http://www.safetycouncil.bc.ca/
>
> That said you might find that there's a waiting list by now, and
> the more expensive courses are less full.

I think this one is a bit more involved. It's 46 hours of
coursework/riding, and I believe the majority of it is
spent in the saddle.


--
Cam
'89 RZ 350
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

"Cam Penner" <cam.pennerATpleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems.com.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
wrote in message news:MPG.1d29c70b51c145c4989765@news.x-privat.org...
> In article <BUJve.96609$9A2.10297@edtnps89>, sj.RemoveThis@sj.com
> says...
>> hi all,
>>
>> i'm a newbie to riding, and am located in vancouver, bc
>> can anyone suggest faq/websites that cover items like what gear to get,
>> what
>> to get a s first bike recommendations etc
>
> 1) Budget about $750 for a rider training course. They
> are worth every penny. (http://www.cyclelogics.ca/ is a
> good place - Randy is a thorough instructor, and you'll
> learn stuff you didn't even know you didn't know)
>
> 2) While taking the course, try as many different style
> bikes as you can. Many courses have example bikes from
> each genre for you to get the feel of.
>
> 3) Don't fall into the "you need 600cc+" mentality -
> especially with sport bikes. 50hp is plenty for a first
> bike. More is probably dangerous.
>
> 4) Check out the difference that the engine size makes on
> your insurance rates. ICBC has 0-100, 101-400, 401-750(?),
> etc. breakpoints. Take your insurance costs into
> consideration when choosing a bike.
>
> 5) According to a UK study, the helmet is the #1 piece of
> safety equipment followed by boots, pants, gloves and
> jacket. This is based on the probability of injury, and
> the impact that an injury has on your life. (ie: losing
> use of a foot/leg will impact your life more than the loss
> of a hand/arm) Note how this differs from the usual buying
> order of gear.
>
> 6) Check http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml for
> more info
>
> --
> Cam

What you guys say is good advice for someone who's never been on a bike
before but keen to check it out and see if riding is for them.

But circumstances alter cases. Some people take to it like a duck to water,
some others...well...should just be advised they should maybe not bother.
They will be a danger to themselves and others no matter how much time they
spend following someone else around wearing a dayglo vest with reflective
tape all over it.

I figure it's a 6th sense survival thing, if you are constantly aware of the
fact that hitting something, or something hitting you, while on a bike is
*VERY* bad bigtime, and this is in the back of your mind always when you're
on your bike, things will be fine. You have to be very focused on what's
happening around you when on a bike.

I have never taken any of these courses. I got my BC bike license 35 yrs ago
when basically all you had to do is a figure 8 around a pair of traffic
cones in a parking lot. The same deal with a few folks I am still in touch
with from that era, they still ride and are all still alive. (mind you one
did go over the hood of a car once but came out of it OK). I have never
"fallen off my bike" at more than ~5MPH. (...ie something dumb like turning
around on wet grass.)

The ICBC thing peeves me because I've known people who are in their '50's,
have had a bike licenses in other countries for 30 yrs, and have to start
all over when they get here.To the point where they can't drive their bike
unless it's in daylight and someone with a valid bike license follows them
around. Absolute total BS.

Frigg'n ICBC, good fodder for another thread.

I don't think encouraging someone to spend $750 on a course which they might
not need is the right answer. It might even wipe out his budget for his 1st
bike.

And I don't think some of the advice they give is that great. I spoke with
someone once who had taken one of these courses. An eg, they mentioned at
one point they were told that a certain percentage of the braking force they
should apply to the front and another to the rear.

Doh????? If you need this one explained, perhaps you deserve the advice, and
maybe even to pay for it. This is a course remember, with an "instructor".
Jeeez.

Some people just don't have to put on a reflective vest, get themselves in a
row with all the other little ducklings, and follow someone else around to
see if they can figure out how to operate a motorcycle, or operate it
safely...or at all....

One book which is quite good is "A twist of the wrist". It's an old book,
but very good. He goes on and on about what he calls "survival reactions"
which are natural but actually wrong and can get you killed, and should be
trained out.

I don't know if this is the kind of stuff they teach in these courses, but
it should be.

One example is shutting off the throttle in a corner when you think you have
entered it too fast, and touching the brakes. Both transfer weight to the
front wheel and make the bike want to stand up and increase the turning
radius, which could result in you going off the road. The real solution is
more throttle. You have to try it to beleive it, it's very hard to do the
1st time, but it works. After practicing a bit, you just do it naturallly.

A NOTE ON THE SAFETY GEAR ISSUE: I agree that your head is the most
important thing to protect from impact. But, nothing apparently is more
painful than trying to grow back large areas of skin. To the point where it
req's a general anesthetic to change the bandages. So get some Cordura or
whatever pants to go with your nice jacket and boots.

My $.02.

D.
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

In article <Of7we.97191$9A2.11762@edtnps89>,
peter_moss.TakeThisOut@telme.net says...

> I figure it's a 6th sense survival thing, if you are constantly aware of the
> fact that hitting something, or something hitting you, while on a bike is
> *VERY* bad bigtime, and this is in the back of your mind always when you're
> on your bike, things will be fine. You have to be very focused on what's
> happening around you when on a bike.

Agreed. You know what? These people tend to be discovered
rather quickly by the number of cones they knock down in
the parking lot, their attitude towards it, and their
ability to understand defensive riding.

> I have never taken any of these courses. I got my BC bike license 35 yrs ago
> when basically all you had to do is a figure 8 around a pair of traffic
> cones in a parking lot. The same deal with a few folks I am still in touch
> with from that era, they still ride and are all still alive. (mind you one
> did go over the hood of a car once but came out of it OK). I have never
> "fallen off my bike" at more than ~5MPH. (...ie something dumb like turning
> around on wet grass.)

Strangely, very few people who have taken the course
indicate that it was a waste of money, while most of the
people who say it is a waste of time and money have never
taken it. I will repeat my earlier statement. It was the
best money I ever spent on my bike. Period.

I'm not saying you should do this, but, I think I would
have stood a better chance of survival riding for my first
year without a jacket and helmet but taking the course than
I would by riding with them and not taking the course.

>
> The ICBC thing peeves me because I've known people who are in their '50's,
> have had a bike licenses in other countries for 30 yrs, and have to start
> all over when they get here.To the point where they can't drive their bike
> unless it's in daylight and someone with a valid bike license follows them
> around. Absolute total BS.

Now that's interesting. I have a relative that moved here
from another country. He was able to drive without any
learner restrictions at all for 6 months I believe, before
he took the test. It's only if you FAIL the drivers test
that you get that privilege revoked and have to get a
learner's license. That's the way it is for cars - I can't
speak for the Class 6 though.

> Frigg'n ICBC, good fodder for another thread.

Yeah, but where else in Canada can you get 12 months
insurance on a sportbike for $300?

> I don't think encouraging someone to spend $750 on a course which they might
> not need is the right answer. It might even wipe out his budget for his 1st
> bike.

If $750 for a first bike wipes out his budget, then he
can't afford to ride in the first place.

> And I don't think some of the advice they give is that great. I spoke with
> someone once who had taken one of these courses. An eg, they mentioned at
> one point they were told that a certain percentage of the braking force they
> should apply to the front and another to the rear.
>
> Doh????? If you need this one explained, perhaps you deserve the advice, and
> maybe even to pay for it. This is a course remember, with an "instructor".
> Jeeez.

And what proportions do YOU use for braking when stopping
"normally"? What about in an emergency situation? How
about in the rain?


> Some people just don't have to put on a reflective vest, get themselves in a
> row with all the other little ducklings, and follow someone else around to
> see if they can figure out how to operate a motorcycle, or operate it
> safely...or at all....

This is true - but who is going to determine who is who?
Evaluating yourself is a very poor idea.

> One book which is quite good is "A twist of the wrist". It's an old book,
> but very good. He goes on and on about what he calls "survival reactions"
> which are natural but actually wrong and can get you killed, and should be
> trained out.

I've got that book. Actually, I've lent it out, but I've
read it a few times. Great book for the track, but much of
it doesn't really transfer to the street. It does have
some interesting concepts that have helped my street
riding, but if I were going to recommend a book for
learning to ride on the street, this wouldn't be it.

> I don't know if this is the kind of stuff they teach in these courses, but
> it should be.

Much of the stuff in this book would sail right over the
heads of a beginning rider. That would be mostly wasted
time. They don't have the skill base to apply the finer
points to. It would be like spending time waxing a car
that is covered in rust and bondo. There is some basic
work to be done before you polish the details.

> One example is shutting off the throttle in a corner when you think you have
> entered it too fast, and touching the brakes. Both transfer weight to the
> front wheel and make the bike want to stand up and increase the turning
> radius, which could result in you going off the road. The real solution is
> more throttle. You have to try it to beleive it, it's very hard to do the
> 1st time, but it works. After practicing a bit, you just do it naturallly.

Actually, this can be dangerous advise. There is nothing
wrong with braking in a corner if you do it right. Yes the
bike starts to stand up - moreso with front brakes than
rear - but you can countersteer it back down with
relatively low effort. Scrubbing speed increases the
amount of cornering your contact patches can handle, and
this increased traction can get you around a tighter
corner. Plus, IF you DO hit something, you've got less
kinetic energy to disperse. The smoothest way out of a
corner you've entered too hot is to look ALL the way
through the corner, hold the throttle steady, lean the
bike more, and drag a little rear brake. This allows you
to slow down without upsetting the suspension, and lean
your way through.

> A NOTE ON THE SAFETY GEAR ISSUE: I agree that your head is the most
> important thing to protect from impact. But, nothing apparently is more
> painful than trying to grow back large areas of skin. To the point where it
> req's a general anesthetic to change the bandages. So get some Cordura or
> whatever pants to go with your nice jacket and boots.

Yeah. 100%.

My point was that the pants SHOULD come before the jacket -
if you are going to buy stuff in stages. Most people figure
lid, jacket then gloves when the reality is that the jacket
is the least important (but still very very important)
piece.

--
Cam
'89 RZ 350
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:46:54 GMT, "pete" <peter_moss.TakeThisOut@telme.net> wrote:

>ne example is shutting off the throttle in a corner when you think you have
>entered it too fast, and touching the brakes. Both transfer weight to the
>front wheel and make the bike want to stand up and increase the turning
>radius, which could result in you going off the road. The real solution is
>more throttle. You have to try it to beleive it, it's very hard to do the
>1st time, but it works. After practicing a bit, you just do it naturallly.

And there is the danger of being self taught or learning through the
sometimes not so good advice of others. Your counsel is only partially
correct and if a newbie was to blindly follow it I suspect they would
be perform a close up and personal ditch inspection.

If you have entered a corner too hot, staying on the throttle is good
advice, but not "more" throttle. The intent is to maintain maximum
traction and you attain that by maintaining optimum balance of weight
on both tires, by staying steady on the throttle. That and pushing
harder on the inside handlebar (counter steering) will get you through
the corner, unless of course you went in way too hot, in which case
start looking for an escape route.

My point is we can all learn something by taking a safety course and
that little something we learn just might keep us from being an
official ditch inspector.
--


Don Binns
RCOS# 7

2000 - Yamaha Venture Millennium Edition

Disclaimer:
This message may contain incidental references to various
brands of motorcycles, vehicles or parts manufacturers.
They are included for informational purposes only and
are not intended to upset, inflame or otherwise disturb
the sensibilities of anyone associated with the brands.
Hyper-sensitive readers of the post who might be upset
with the content are advised to make copious notes,
organize them into a coherent message and then hit the
delete button.


http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/radium1.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

"Calgary" <dlbcaldeletethis.TakeThisOut@telus.net> wrote in message
news:fqe2c1h22shtiotptgpgvbn284800l21ru@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:46:54 GMT, "pete" <peter_moss.TakeThisOut@telme.net> wrote:
>
>>ne example is shutting off the throttle in a corner when you think you
>>have
>>entered it too fast, and touching the brakes. Both transfer weight to the
>>front wheel and make the bike want to stand up and increase the turning
>>radius, which could result in you going off the road. The real solution is
>>more throttle. You have to try it to beleive it, it's very hard to do the
>>1st time, but it works. After practicing a bit, you just do it naturallly.
>
> And there is the danger of being self taught or learning through the
> sometimes not so good advice of others. Your counsel is only partially
> correct and if a newbie was to blindly follow it I suspect they would
> be perform a close up and personal ditch inspection.
>
> If you have entered a corner too hot, staying on the throttle is good
> advice, but not "more" throttle. The intent is to maintain maximum
> traction and you attain that by maintaining optimum balance of weight
> on both tires, by staying steady on the throttle. That and pushing
> harder on the inside handlebar (counter steering) will get you through
> the corner, unless of course you went in way too hot, in which case
> start looking for an escape route.
>
> My point is we can all learn something by taking a safety course and
> that little something we learn just might keep us from being an
> official ditch inspector.
> --
>
>
> Don Binns
> RCOS# 7
>
> 2000 - Yamaha Venture Millennium Edition
>
> Disclaimer:
> This message may contain incidental references to various
> brands of motorcycles, vehicles or parts manufacturers.
> They are included for informational purposes only and
> are not intended to upset, inflame or otherwise disturb
> the sensibilities of anyone associated with the brands.
> Hyper-sensitive readers of the post who might be upset
> with the content are advised to make copious notes,
> organize them into a coherent message and then hit the
> delete button.
>
>
> http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
> http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/radium1.htm
> http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
> http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
> http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
> http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
> http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm

OK, I agree taking a couse could not be a net bad thing. For me, it would
probably be too little too late.

But as for the throttle thing....all I can say is try it. Go find a twisty
road. Get into your normal lope.

Start doing this....Once you're set up in a curve, focus as far down it as
you can see, keep your head vertical, get your forearm and hand muscles as
relaxed as you can, and roll on the throttle as you progress around it, and
see what happens.

Rinse and repeat.

It will be 1 of 3 things:

1. This just doesn't work for me, I don't like this and I'm not comfortable
with it. I'm not going to do this again.
2. Wow. The bike seems more balanced and seems to find its own path, and I'm
not conciously having to think about (counter) steering, any pressure I
was putting on the bars is pretty much gone, and I don't wonder around in
the lane looking for the right track. This feels great.
3. I like something in between and I'm not impressed that much with this
theory.

Then go find a decreasing radius turn you are familiar with. Do your normal
counter steering thing, and then roll on the gas a bit. You might find out
that (2) happens. Then again, maybe not.

But whatever, you have to try it. Works for me, and it works for the guy who
wrote the book. [I suspect you actually have a copy someplace ... ) ]

The reasons for it seem sound to me, but I guess you need the book to get
the full scoop.

I would be curious to know your findings on this if you try it.

D.
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:56:37 GMT, "pete" <peter_moss DeleteThis @telme.net> wrote:

>Start doing this....Once you're set up in a curve, focus as far down it as
>you can see, keep your head vertical, get your forearm and hand muscles as
>relaxed as you can, and roll on the throttle as you progress around it, and
>see what happens.

Accelerating out of a corner is not the scenario you initially
described. You suggested if you have enter a corner too hot the
solution is to add more throttle.
--


Don Binns
RCOS# 7
Party-Planner Official Reeky Nominee (PORN)

2000 - Yamaha Venture Millennium Edition

Disclaimer:
This message may contain incidental references to various
brands of motorcycles, vehicles or parts manufacturers.
They are included for informational purposes only and
are not intended to upset, inflame or otherwise disturb
the sensibilities of anyone associated with the brands.
Hyper-sensitive readers of the post who might be upset
with the content are advised to make copious notes,
organize them into a coherent message and then hit the
delete button.


http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/radium1.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

In article <pp1xe.101268$9A2.53878@edtnps89>,
peter_moss RemoveThis @telme.net says...

> OK, I agree taking a couse could not be a net bad thing. For me, it would
> probably be too little too late.

It's never too late. You'll probably want one of the more
advanced rider courses where you cover the basics much more
quickly, but old dogs can learn new tricks.

> But as for the throttle thing....all I can say is try it. Go find a twisty
> road. Get into your normal lope.
>
> Start doing this....Once you're set up in a curve, focus as far down it as
> you can see, keep your head vertical, get your forearm and hand muscles as
> relaxed as you can, and roll on the throttle as you progress around it, and
> see what happens.
>
> Rinse and repeat.

Accelerating through a corner is great - providing you
aren't in a decreasing radius corner. No argument there,
that's just plain fun. It doesn't help you turn the corner
any sharper though. You are apexing the corner earlier,
and accelerating out.

> Then go find a decreasing radius turn you are familiar with. Do your normal
> counter steering thing, and then roll on the gas a bit. You might find out
> that (2) happens. Then again, maybe not.

#2 will happen if you enter the corner slow enough. With
the proper entry speed, accelerating through the whole
corner isn't a problem. It's when your exit speed needs to
be lower than your entry speed that your technique is
flawed.

> But whatever, you have to try it. Works for me, and it works for the guy who
> wrote the book. [I suspect you actually have a copy someplace ... ) ]

The book was written for the track. On the track it is
better to plan your apexes on the early side to get the
best drive for the next straightaway. On the road,
sightlines and traffic set your line, and you must adjust
your speed appropriately.

There's good info in that book, but you must beware of
which bits to use on the street, and which to use on the
track. Surely you can see that setting up braking points
on the street, and "letting your mind rest" to save "your
$10 of attention" on the street really isn't appropriate
advice.

Just for a point of reference, I'm also a BC rider, and
also a "RoadStar" (for whatever that is worth). I've got a
dozen years of street riding in everything from that -10
snap we had a couple years ago in January to the heat of
summer. I'm not going to say that I know more than you
about riding, nor am I going to claim to know "everything"
about it - just that I'm not coming from a "new rider"
point of view.

--
Cam
'89 RZ 350
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

<snipped>
> Agreed. You know what? These people tend to be discovered
> rather quickly by the number of cones they knock down in
> the parking lot, their attitude towards it, and their
> ability to understand defensive riding.
<snipped>

I didn't knock over any cones 35 yrs ago in a parking lot when driving
around cones was the DL test.

More cones wouldn't have made a difference. YES! Bring on the cones! PLS!
Discover me! Jeez....

As far as "defensive riding" is concerned, you could say "defensive
driving", of which I am in the ICBC "RoadStar" category, whatever that is
(don't get me started on ICBC .... major rant topic)

Cheers

D.
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

<snipped>
> Accelerating out of a corner is not the scenario you initially
> described. You suggested if you have enter a corner too hot the
> solution is to add more throttle.
> --
<snipped>

I understand your question, I am suggesting that....
If you do enter a corner too hot, what are your options?
Back off the gas............bad
Touch the brakes...........bad
Countersteer........not the best but it's an out. You have to fight with the
bike.
More throttle.....the bike will become more stable, fall over to an
appropriate angle and negotiate the corner better.

Like I said in my last post, you don't have to agree with it, just go try
it. And post your opinion.You might have an "Epiphany" (sp?C) )
Corners don't last forever...if you can see the end and it looks like a
reasonable thing to expect to reach, don't panic.
But it actually doesn't matter if you have entered a corner too hot, or just
slightly faster than you're comfy with, or just having fun in the twisty's.
The princples are the same.

Once you enter the turn...more gas.

You might find the concept just makes for a more fun and safer ride, it's a
fun thing to practice, and gives you a better understanding of the physics
of a bike doing stuff.

But maybe not. Go try it and give us a report....

Cheers

D.
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

In article <yO2xe.101274$9A2.100796@edtnps89>,
peter_moss.DeleteThis@telme.net says...
> <snipped>
> > Accelerating out of a corner is not the scenario you initially
> > described. You suggested if you have enter a corner too hot the
> > solution is to add more throttle.
> > --
> <snipped>
>
> I understand your question, I am suggesting that....
> If you do enter a corner too hot, what are your options?
> Back off the gas............bad

Why not? You have a limited amount of traction at each
wheel in a corner. To make it around the corner your
combined cornering, braking, and accelerating forces have
to be within the traction limits for each wheel. By
rolling off the throttle you momentarily increase your
braking forces, but once the speed is down, you have more
traction available to turn. In the meantime, you have
increased your weight on the front end, increasing the
total traction available at that tire.

It feels eerie to control at first, but it increases the
amount of turn you can do for the same amount of traction.

> Touch the brakes...........bad

Why is this bad? Do motorcycles not brake while leaned
over? Mine does. Every one I've ever rode does. Again,
you momentarily use your extra traction for braking,
bleeding speed, and as that happens you gain it back for
increased cornering. It messes a bit with the steering
geometry, and there is some weight transfer, but it is the
most effective way to tighten up a radius that you are
going in too hot for.

> Countersteer........not the best but it's an out. You have to fight with the
> bike.

It's not fighting with the bike, it is controlling it. If
you can get through a decreasing radius corner that you
think you are too hot for with this, you really weren't too
hot for it. However, this is sufficient for most rider
miscalculations of corners.

I prefer to mix this with using the brakes for best
effects.

> More throttle.....the bike will become more stable, fall over to an
> appropriate angle and negotiate the corner better.

So you use up some of your traction accelerating, and then
are left with less turning ability for your traction? This
doesn't add up at all.

Sure, on exit of the corner, feed the throttle back in to
stand the bike back up more smoothly, but speeding up
because you are going too fast isn't the best option I've
ever heard of.

> Like I said in my last post, you don't have to agree with it, just go try
> it. And post your opinion.You might have an "Epiphany" (sp?C) )
> Corners don't last forever...if you can see the end and it looks like a
> reasonable thing to expect to reach, don't panic.

I'll agree with that part. Looking deeper through the
corner helps you countersteer properly.

> But it actually doesn't matter if you have entered a corner too hot, or just
> slightly faster than you're comfy with, or just having fun in the twisty's.
> The princples are the same.
>
> Once you enter the turn...more gas.

You'll need to add a little gas as you enter a corner IF
you want to maintain the same speed. The circumference of
the portion of the tire you are using decreases as you
lean. A little throttle keeps the bike from decelerating
against your will.

--
Cam
'89 RZ 350
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia 

"Cam Penner" <cam.pennerATpleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems.com RemoveThis @hotmail.com>
wrote in message news:MPG.1d2e5d4f77c69d698976e@news.x-privat.org...
> In article <yO2xe.101274$9A2.100796@edtnps89>,
> peter_moss RemoveThis @telme.net says...
>> <snipped>
>> > Accelerating out of a corner is not the scenario you initially
>> > described. You suggested if you have enter a corner too hot the
>> > solution is to add more throttle.
>> > --
>> <snipped>
>>
>> I understand your question, I am suggesting that....
>> If you do enter a corner too hot, what are your options?
>> Back off the gas............bad
>
> Why not? You have a limited amount of traction at each
> wheel in a corner. To make it around the corner your
> combined cornering, braking, and accelerating forces have
> to be within the traction limits for each wheel. By
> rolling off the throttle you momentarily increase your
> braking forces, but once the speed is down, you have more
> traction available to turn. In the meantime, you have
> increased your weight on the front end, increasing the
> total traction available at that tire.
>
> It feels eerie to control at first, but it increases the
> amount of turn you can do for the same amount of traction.
>
>> Touch the brakes...........bad
>
> Why is this bad? Do motorcycles not brake while leaned
> over? Mine does. Every one I've ever rode does. Again,
> you momentarily use your extra traction for braking,
> bleeding speed, and as that happens you gain it back for
> increased cornering. It messes a bit with the steering
> geometry, and there is some weight transfer, but it is the
> most effective way to tighten up a radius that you are
> going in too hot for.
>
>> Countersteer........not the best but it's an out. You have to fight with
>> the
>> bike.
>
> It's not fighting with the bike, it is controlling it. If
> you can get through a decreasing radius corner that you
> think you are too hot for with this, you really weren't too
> hot for it. However, this is sufficient for most rider
> miscalculations of corners.
>
> I prefer to mix this with using the brakes for best
> effects.
>
>> More throttle.....the bike will become more stable, fall over to an
>> appropriate angle and negotiate the corner better.
>
> So you use up some of your traction accelerating, and then
> are left with less turning ability for your traction? This
> doesn't add up at all.
>
> Sure, on exit of the corner, feed the throttle back in to
> stand the bike back up more smoothly, but speeding up
> because you are going too fast isn't the best option I've
> ever heard of.
>
>> Like I said in my last post, you don't have to agree with it, just go try
>> it. And post your opinion.You might have an "Epiphany" (sp?C) )
>> Corners don't last forever...if you can see the end and it looks like a
>> reasonable thing to expect to reach, don't panic.
>
> I'll agree with that part. Looking deeper through the
> corner helps you countersteer properly.
>
>> But it actually doesn't matter if you have entered a corner too hot, or
>> just
>> slightly faster than you're comfy with, or just having fun in the
>> twisty's.
>> The princples are the same.
>>
>> Once you enter the turn...more gas.
>
> You'll need to add a little gas as you enter a corner IF
> you want to maintain the same speed. The circumference of
> the portion of the tire you are using decreases as you
> lean. A little throttle keeps the bike from decelerating
> against your will.
>
> --
> Cam
> '89 RZ 350

Oh for frigs sakes Cam, pls just take your bike out and try it out and
report back.

Regards...
 >> Stay informed about: newbie to riding - looking for info - tia