Will any glue stick bike plastics?

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:11:53 -0000, "Jim Ingram"
<Jim.TakeThisOut@r3m0v3th1s.jocelinecook.force9.co.uk> wrote:


>> I had also considered that, at least just peening / stitching (?) the
>> joint together from the back so it's got some continuation to the
>> plastic at least. So is the basic idea to build up a plastic weld
>> 'bead' over the crack to carry the load round the crack? Or to 'weld'
>> some extra material over the crack (sorta the same thing but using
>> 'bits' of the same sort of plastic rather than filler rod as such)?
>>
>I've used a soldering iron a couple of times and it seems to work quit well.
>Much like any form of welding the key is to get good penetration. I've got a
>small 25W soldering iron (not sure if a larger one would be better or
>worse).

Ok, I've got a cheapo temperature controlled one so I guess hot enough
to melt but not so hot as it bubbles and burns etc?

> What I do is clamp the two pieces together, then from the back poke
>the soldering iron into the crack until it just starts to come out the other
>side, then remove and kind of push the melting plastic back into the hole
>with the soldering iron so that it all fuses together and repeat.

Got it, good description.

> Something
>to use as filler rod is good to help get back to the original thickness.

Understood, I do have a complete spare lhs panel I picked up from ebay
and although it's not broken it does have a lug missing (I didn't spot
that till after I'd bought it but it was cheap enough so ...). I also
have a spare back fairing panel so I might be able to cut some
de-pained strips from that to use as a filler rod.

>Do
>this outside on a breezy day.

Understood ..

All the best and thanks Jim.

T i m
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:22:52 +0000, Pete Fisher
<Peter DeleteThis @ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:


>SWMBO has an example of the very same bike. On her 92 model the side
>panels come off all in one unit.

Yup, that's the beast. 2 x 10mm bolts and the whole lot comes off easy
enough though.

> I must admit I had to have a good look
>at the handbook to discover how to do it. I can understand someone
>breaking it if they didn't RTFM.

Indeed. It would make more sense if it was the rhs panel as that's
where the battery lives?
>
>>
>>Good stuff then!
>
>It works for me. Lozzo's method is far more elegant and probably
>ultimately stronger. I must experiment with it on the old Nordwest
>panels I have lying around.

I might be letting you all know tomorrow!

>I will confess that the bodge on the Nordie
>was a mega-bodge in that I didn't even remove the panel.

I did similar when I got this bike with the nearly_cracked_in_two
panel. Drilled the hole at the end of the crack and two either side on
the edge to run a cable tie through. It hardly noticed but you just
had to be careful when taking it off. I had considered doing some
cable tie 'stitching' (like I'd seen done elsewhere) but as I wanted
to get it painted as well it seemed a shame not to try to get it as
tidy as possible.

> I was in a
>hurry to get the bike ready and then dropped on to the corner of a tool
>box (6 inches to the right and i would have got away with it) whilst
>checking the oil (yes Pip I lack balance and strength).

Oooowwwwaa.! Dontcha just hate it when that happens? Like when you are
using the wrong tool because you are in a hurry and think "if this
slips I could hurt my ... ah .. "
>
>Also the break was in a position that feared that the crack would
>'travel' as the tension was removed on undoing the fastener near the
>break. So I did the patch with the panel in situ. The break left a gap
>the size of a 50p piece without any surviving fragments left worth
>using. The bumper fill built up on the patch brought the surface up to
>match nicely.

Sounds like it served you proud.

All the best ..

T i m
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:57:39 +0000, eric the brave <etb RemoveThis @foo.com>
wrote:


>Bumper repair stuff from Halfords?

Yeah, I'm going to get some of that as well as it sounds pretty handy
(thanks).

All the best ..

T i m
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

On 17 Feb 2008 19:57:43 GMT, "Lozzo" <lozzo.DeleteThis@lozzo.org.uk> wrote:

>> That's what I thought and the idea of the ally strips, to make a
>> mechanical support before I did any aesthetic stuff (the super glue
>> was simply to keep the bits in-line till I supported them better). Say
>> 50mm long, 20mm wide and 3 mm thick, two small countersunk machine
>> screws either side of the crack in a few key places (and bedded in
>> epoxy to help it all stay together)?
>
>Weld it, it's far easier and makes for a more permanent repair.

Ok, well I like the idea of that on both counts.

>I've
>been using the soldering iron and filler rod approach so far, but I'm
>about to start experimenting with hot air gun useage.

Ah, well, good luck with that then? What hot air gun do you have?

>my filler rod is
>an old GPZ500 fairing chopped into strips afterremoving the paint.

Is it generally considered ok to use *any* bike fairing plastic or
should you try to stick with similar model bits?

>Paint contaminates the weld and makes it brittle as well as making it
>harder to get a good paint finish.

Do you sand that off or is it a Nitromors job (wasn't sure what that
would do to the plastic)?

> Ideally you need as much of the
>original plastic as possible, don't go cutting V grooves cos you'll
>only need more filler rod and it will take longer.

Ok, noted. Luckily nothing is missing from this job (basic crack) but
I understand if there was a hole etc.
>
>When I'm repairing a crack or welding back in a broken part I start on
>the back of the panel and tack it into place.

Ok, so that's the same as my super glue stage then (mind you that's
gonna stink when it get's hot eh..)

> I'll turn it over and
>check it's all in line before finishing the weld on the back side.

Ok ..

> Then
>I'll repeat for the front after removing the paint from 5 to 10mm each
>side of the line I want to weld.

Ok, so on mine you probably wouldn't even know there was any damage at
that point (the crack is pretty clean and tight) but you would still
also process it from the front side to provide the strength?

> To start with I just get the bits
>stuck together, then I'll go back over it with filler rod building it
>up until it's proud of the panel. When it's done I flatten it back

(rasp / glass - emery- paper / wet_n_dry)?

>until it's just a little proud and give it to my painter to finish off
>with a DA sander or whatever he wants to use.

That will be me again. So just sand it flat with whatever works ..
>
>If you're being really flash you can make the inside weld as invisible
>as the outer one, which is handy on some bikes that have fairing panels
>visible from both sides, like my Thunderace mirror mount was.

Understood. In this case it's a straight one_sided affair.
>
>I'll let you know how I get on with the hot air gun tomorrow.

And me with the iron. Any advice re the shape of the tip please Lozzo,
what are we trying to do here? I imagine a chisel tip would allow
penetration whilst allowing you to move the plastic about a bit?

> There's
>an SV top fairing in the garage I can experiment on

Luckily I don't have anything as yet .. <touching wood>.

All the best, good luck tomorrow and thanks for the info.

T i m
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

T i m wrote:

> > You will need a nozzle to concentrate the air flow, to make a
> > smaller, hotter area. You could easily make one, or adapt the wide
> > one.
>
> And is that it Joe (assuming some matching material to act as filler
> rod etc)? Is temperature control essential (especially for a novice)?
>
> Is it then just a matter of building up some material behind the
> crack?

Tempature control is much less critical than metal welding, but
spreading out the heat, will lead to the plastic sagging on a wider
distance to the line of weld. It is very fiddly, but a heat dissapator,
similar to that used on metal welding can be made from tin foil stuck
at a distance to the weld line. Even so, a nozzle has to be used, as
the spread from the standard tube is far too wide. A decent result can
be had from a heat gun with a few settings. The electronic variable
type is not essential. Heat of the weld, can be controlled using speed
of travel as with any welding.
Maybe the best advice would be to give it a try on scrap panel first,
using ABB rods, which are fairly cheap on the internet.



--
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

On 18 Feb 2008 17:51:45 GMT, "joe" <joeparkinchinese.DeleteThis@btinternet.com>
wrote:

>T i m wrote:
>
>> > You will need a nozzle to concentrate the air flow, to make a
>> > smaller, hotter area. You could easily make one, or adapt the wide
>> > one.
>>
>> And is that it Joe (assuming some matching material to act as filler
>> rod etc)? Is temperature control essential (especially for a novice)?
>>
>> Is it then just a matter of building up some material behind the
>> crack?
>
>Tempature control is much less critical than metal welding, but
>spreading out the heat, will lead to the plastic sagging on a wider
>distance to the line of weld.

And that was my worry Joe.

> It is very fiddly, but a heat dissapator,
>similar to that used on metal welding can be made from tin foil stuck
>at a distance to the weld line.

Understood.

>Even so, a nozzle has to be used, as
>the spread from the standard tube is far too wide.

Because I'm still not quite sure about exactly what one of the
professional plastic welders does I'm having difficulty comprehending
what sort of width a weld would be? Like I know how wide and what I
could solder with say a fine tipped 50W iron or weld with 100A on my
stick welder.

> A decent result can
>be had from a heat gun with a few settings. The electronic variable
>type is not essential.

Ok, well the best I can manager here atm is a two setting one, yer
basic paint stripper.

>Heat of the weld, can be controlled using speed
>of travel as with any welding.

The best I can forsee with my current heat gun and its smallest nozzle
(which is about 25mm diameter) is a heap of melted plastic ..

>Maybe the best advice would be to give it a try on scrap panel first,
>using ABB rods, which are fairly cheap on the internet.

So are all bike panels compatible with ABB Joe or do you just happen
to know Honda's use such?

All the best ..

T i m
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

"Steve" <steveloukes DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:C3DE0478.6D62C%steveloukes@hotmail.com...
> On 17/2/08 14:39, in article pkhgr31u9shhdv1k9jtgt4on53l8rbv8hu DeleteThis @4ax.com,
> "Grimly Curmudgeon" <grimly4REMOVE DeleteThis @REMOVEgmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Cracked side panel is a POP to do yersel with a hot air gun and filler
>> rod. I've used a soldering iron to good effect, but it's stinky and
>> messy. Pre plastic welding, another method I used successfully on panels
>> was a couple of layers of fibreglass on the rear/inside.
> Will a decorating hot air gun do the job? Sealey sell a kit for £100 ish
> but
> this seems a lot for what looks like an ordinary hot air gun and some
> rods.

A Sealey gun will do fine IF you have the welding nozzle. Without it, too
much of the surrounding plastic gets hot and then you're distorting it and
having to deal with an out of shape panel and fairing panels are BIG, so
they warp with little provocation.

You also need the correct filler road, so check which plastic you're
welding.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:45:20 GMT, "Beav"
<beavis.original DeleteThis @ntlwoxorld.com> wrote:

>A Sealey gun will do fine IF you have the welding nozzle. Without it, too
>much of the surrounding plastic gets hot and then you're distorting it and
>having to deal with an out of shape panel and fairing panels are BIG, so
>they warp with little provocation.

Ok, and what I imagined might happen.
>
>You also need the correct filler road, so check which plastic you're
>welding.

So, I note the Sealey Hot Air Gun kit (HS102K) comes with a suitable
reducing and rod feed nozzles but 'ABS' rods? I believe it was Joe
who suggested I might need ABB rods (unless that was a typo?) but I
guess because determining what type of (the many) plastics it could be
makes using a section from the existing panel more reliable (till you
get to know yer plastics etc)?

I didn't get round to doing anything on it yesterday (I was hoping to
test the soldering iron method) and wonder how Lozzo got on with his?

All the best ..

T i m
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

T i m wrote:


> I didn't get round to doing anything on it yesterday (I was hoping to
> test the soldering iron method) and wonder how Lozzo got on with his?

I will be playing with hot air guns this afternoon.


--
Lozzo
Slightly bent Suzuki SV650S K5
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

"T i m" <news RemoveThis @spaced.me.uk> wrote in message
news:s1rlr31ki5tidchi3hdg1m7tjbd32gioua@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:45:20 GMT, "Beav"
> <beavis.original RemoveThis @ntlwoxorld.com> wrote:
>
>>A Sealey gun will do fine IF you have the welding nozzle. Without it, too
>>much of the surrounding plastic gets hot and then you're distorting it and
>>having to deal with an out of shape panel and fairing panels are BIG, so
>>they warp with little provocation.
>
> Ok, and what I imagined might happen.
>>
>>You also need the correct filler road, so check which plastic you're
>>welding.
>
> So, I note the Sealey Hot Air Gun kit (HS102K) comes with a suitable
> reducing and rod feed nozzles but 'ABS' rods?

ABS is a type of plastic (you may know that already), and it needs ABS rods
to effect a proper weld. The type of plastic a fairing is made of is usually
moulded into the fairing (inside) somewhere for just this reason.

> I believe it was Joe
> who suggested I might need ABB rods (unless that was a typo?) but I
> guess because determining what type of (the many) plastics it could be
> makes using a section from the existing panel more reliable (till you
> get to know yer plastics etc)?

Check the inside of the pastics you intend fixing, it should say "ABS" or
"ABB", or even "Expanded Polysytrene", then get the appropriate rods. And
watch out for burnt fingers when you get started.

>
> I didn't get round to doing anything on it yesterday (I was hoping to
> test the soldering iron method) and wonder how Lozzo got on with his?

Lozzo would've got on well, coz the soldering iron tacking method is the
best. Me and Loz differ in the next bit though (the actual welding itself)
as I DO make a "V" shape at the joint, to give the rod an area to flow into,
but it's a "method" thing and we all have our own.




--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

"T i m" <news.RemoveThis@spaced.me.uk> wrote in message
news:lcpgr3lpssnnf2gsfn6f4l2ou35or4jrup@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:39:13 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
> <grimly4REMOVE.RemoveThis@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Cracked side panel is a POP to do yersel with a hot air gun and filler
>>rod.
>
> I did a bit of Googling on that before I asked here and it looked like
> the 'basic kit' for plastic welding (inc some sample plastics) was
> gonna cost me 100 notes (for what looked like an everyday hot air
> gun?) and £300+ for something that looked like it would focus the heat
> more specifically (and with a rod feed tube etc). I'm not saying that
> the fist set wouldn't work, but as a fairly long term solderer and
> metal welder I imagined the plastic getting too hot generally and all
> folding up (like welding thin ally)?

Thin ally generally just flops or bursts into flame at anything above 600
degs. Plastic "flops" a lot sooner, but the heat still needs to be directed
right at the job. The speed of the passage of the gun is as important as the
heat coming out of it and a rod guide/feed tube is a necessity (if you want
an easier life).
>
> I even asked about to see if I could put a decent kit to some extra
> use, to help it pay for itself at least but it was suggested I would
> probably have to do the painting as well and I'm not up for that, not
> right now anyway?
>
>>I've used a soldering iron to good effect, but it's stinky and
>>messy.
>
> I had also considered that, at least just peening / stitching (?) the
> joint together from the back so it's got some continuation to the
> plastic at least. So is the basic idea to build up a plastic weld
> 'bead' over the crack to carry the load round the crack? Or to 'weld'
> some extra material over the crack (sorta the same thing but using
> 'bits' of the same sort of plastic rather than filler rod as such)?

You need to get the original plastic molten and at the same time you need
the rod to be molten. That way the rod flows into the joint and the result
is a neat "line", but one made up wholly of plastic, not a mix of plastic
and air pockets.

It's not a bad idea to REALLY scuff up the inside of the panel and add a
layer of either glass cloth, or carbon fibre cloth too. Obviously with a
dribble or two of resin (fibreglass resin is better than polyester resin for
fairings)

This tends to spread the fixing rather than have it concentrated in the
joint.


>
>>Pre plastic welding, another method I used successfully on panels
>>was a couple of layers of fibreglass on the rear/inside.
>
> Well, I guess I could do that as well Dave? So, I clean the inner
> surface back to the native plastic (it looks a sort of yellow?) and
> just layup some glass mat (I've got some woven cloth / carbon cloth
> and tissue as well) over the broken area (a few inches either side
> etc).

Exactly that. Cloth rather than mat though, but another thing I've used very
succespfully is a product aimed at the building/platerering trade. It's
"sticky backed fibreglass cloth on a roll". It's designed to go across
plasterboard joints just pror to skimming with the plaster, costs pennies
and is available in various widths,. Pull some off the roll and it sticks to
the plastic panels with ease and it also accomodated compound curves. Dollop
resin on after it's applied and Bob's shagging your Mam's sister again.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:21:13 GMT, "Beav"
<beavis.original DeleteThis @ntlwoxorld.com> wrote:


>> So, I note the Sealey Hot Air Gun kit (HS102K) comes with a suitable
>> reducing and rod feed nozzles but 'ABS' rods?
>
>ABS is a type of plastic (you may know that already), and it needs ABS rods
>to effect a proper weld. The type of plastic a fairing is made of is usually
>moulded into the fairing (inside) somewhere for just this reason.

Yeah, I guess my question was really 'why ABS' (rather than any other
type etc)?
>
>Check the inside of the pastics you intend fixing, it should say "ABS" or
>"ABB", or even "Expanded Polysytrene", then get the appropriate rods.

Luckily I was able to pop into my local bike shop today and not only
do they have said Sealey plastic welding kit (and happy to lend it to
me should I need) but he also showed me it in action on a bit of scrap
fairing and the '> A B S < marking inside this particular panel.

He did add it may be a good idea to support the plastic underneath if
at all possible (as there seems to be a pretty fine line between good
penetration weld and the nozzle through the plastic)?

> And
>watch out for burnt fingers when you get started.



The bit I'm still uneasy about the heat thing, preferring something
chemical (and predictable) to the 'you get one shot at it' thing with
the welder (with my current lack of experience of such things etc).

My thoughts are (and they may be way off) that any 'join' isn't going
to be quite as strong as the original material so some reinforcement
may be a good thing in any case to prevent it failing in the same
place in the future <shrug>.
>
>Lozzo would've got on well, coz the soldering iron tacking method is the
>best. Me and Loz differ in the next bit though (the actual welding itself)
>as I DO make a "V" shape at the joint, to give the rod an area to flow into,
>but it's a "method" thing and we all have our own.

Hmm.

Ok, here's my idea then, based on some of the other solutions given so
far ...

With the joint currently securely re-made with good superglue (to hold
everything in-line and in- place) clean the paint off the inside maybe
3" either side of the break and generally roughen up the surface.

Drill through the prepared panel area with several evenly spaced (say)
6 mm diameter holes and countersink them to the thickness of the
plastic from the other side. Cover the holes on the outside with tape.

Apply fiberglass resin to the inside prepared area (especially into
the holes) and a single layer of woven mat over the entire area, allow
to go green.

Lay some suitable strips of ally / wood / plastic over the break (at
90 degrees to and slightly shorter than the prepared area) and glass
over with at least one layer of woven mat (the stiffness being from
the section made by the glass rather than the inserts themselves).

When cured, remove masking tape and fill the slightly opened crack and
holes from the outside.

Sand / prime / paint.

The 'reasons' for the above solution for me would be:

1) I have the materials / tools already.

2) I am familiar with the processes (and they can be applied at my own
pace).

3) I'm unlikely to make matters worse (or burn myself) and no
distortion etc. The tapered holes should form resin 'rivets', even if
the fiberglass doesn't adhere to the plastic (it may be considered
overkill but it's easy and quick to apply).

4) It could potentially be stronger than anything else I could do?

So, weld or glass, weld or glass ..?

All the best ..

T i m
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics? 

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:35:52 GMT, "Beav"
<beavis.original RemoveThis @ntlwoxorld.com> wrote:


>> Given more time, money and this house finished (so never then) I
>> think I'd like to rebuild crashed / damaged plastics, I should imagine
>> it's quite rewarding (in many ways <g>) taking a bag of bits and
>> putting them back together again.
>
>There's always a vital bit missing. ALWAYS

Ah, but then I guess that's where the creative element can kick in
Beav. Should I fill the hole or leave it and find a sticker?

All the best ..

T i m
 >> Stay informed about: Will any glue stick bike plastics?