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gas in air filter?

 
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Ed Chait

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Since: May 19, 2005
Posts: 18



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:42 am
Post subject: gas in air filter?
Archived from groups: rec>motorcycles>tech (more info?)

I have a 2003 Kawasaki KLR-650 that I have modified by adjusting the idle
mixture screw on the carburator to 2.5 turns out (as is generally
recommended by KLR owners) and have also richened up the midrange by
shimming the needle. This is a California bike that was typically delivered
with very lean jetting.

I went to service my air filter today and noticed that the foam filter
smelled like gasoline. It wasn't drenched or anything like that, but it had
a strong gasoline odor.

The bike runs great. I can start it with little or no enrichener and it
warms up quickly. It will occasionally backfire through the exhaust on
trailing throttle but only occasionally and otherwise runs great through the
entire rpm range.

Is the odor of gas on the air filter something I need to be concerned about?

Ed Chait

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Albrecht

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 61



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:42 am
Post subject: Re: gas in air filter? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Apr 19, 3:06�am, "Ed Chait" <edchait4rem....TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I have a 2003 Kawasaki KLR-650 that I have modified by adjusting the idle
> mixture screw on the carburator to 2.5 turns out (as is generally
> recommended by KLR owners) and have also richened up the midrange by
> shimming the needle.  This is a California bike that was typically delivered
> with very lean jetting.

Shimming the needle to richen up the midrange on a streetbike equipped
with *diaphragm carbs* is an urban myth perpetuated by people who want
to sound authoritative.

I tried moving the needle clip down one slot on *slide valve* carbs
that had adjustable needles and always went back to the original
position.

And, the actual position of the *jet needle* in the *needle jet* in a
diaphragm carb is controlled by engine vacuum, and that's dependant
upon the position of the throttle butterfly. If you open the throttle
too far, vacuum decreases, the slide falls, and what happens to the
needle that's attached to the slide? What happens to mid-range mixture
then?

Where does the extra source of gasoline come from at small throttle
openings? It mostly comes from the transition ports just downstream of
the throttle butterfly and the single idle mixture outlet port that is
adjustable by turning the idle mixture screw.

The idle mixture screw acts as a sort of "trimmer" on the total idle
mixture because the single idle mixture port is in parallel with the
three fixed transition ports.

You get 75% of all the gasoline your engine uses from the idle jet
until the slide rises far enough for the area of the *variable*
orifice created by the jet needle/needle jet to be larger than the
*fixed* orifice which is the hole in the main jet.

Read what Mark Salvisberg has to say about CV carb tuning on www.factorypro..com.

Most newbies have the idea that their engine suddenly gets a big shot
of extra gasoline when the carburetor goes onto the main jet.

That's just not true. It's bass ackwards from reality. If the main jet
is correctly sized, it *limits* the flow of gasoline to what is
necessary to keep the engine cool when you ride at full throttle for
extended periods. And, what street rider ever does that?

I've had my KLR up to 90 mph for very short distances, and it starts
waggling and weaving and generally doing the high speed mambo, so I
slow down to 75 or 80 mph indicated, where it's a lot happier.
>
> I went to service my air filter today and noticed that the foam filter
> smelled like gasoline.  It wasn't drenched or anything like that, but it had
> a strong gasoline odor.

What does your oil smell like? Maybe your float valve is stuck open
and you're getting the gasoline fumes from the crankcase breather
hose?
>
> The bike runs great.  I can start it with little or no enrichener and it
> warms up quickly.

That indicates your idle mixture may be too rich. The starting
enrichener is NOT really intended to be used in any position except
fully open or fully closed. When starting, you should open the
enrichener fully, and leave the twist grip alone. The enrichener is a
little air valve in a passage that bypasses the throttle butterfly. It
sucks gasoline straight out of the float bowl through a brass tube
like a kid sucking milk through a straw.

If you open the throttle butterfly even slightly, vacuum drops off at
the enrichener outlet port and defeats it. But, if your idle mixture
screw is opened so far that you had to adjust the idle speed knob
higher, you're getting extra mixture through the transition ports.

You're the only one who knows the answer to the following questions.
Did the engine idle too slow after you opened the idle mixture screw
to 2.5 turns out? Did you turn the idle speed screw to adjust the idle
up? Does the engine sometimes idle far too fast for a long time after
you close the throttle when the engine is warmed up?

If you answered "yes" to those questions, your idle mixture screw is
turned out too far.

�> It will occasionally backfire through the exhaust on
> trailing throttle but only occasionally and otherwise runs great through the
> entire rpm range.

My KLR always farted out the exhaust on trailing throttle from the day
I got it. There is a vacuum operated diaphragm valve on the side of
the carburetor that is supposed to reduce air to the idle mixture
circuits on trailing throttle, but it doesn't seem to do much of
anything. These diaphragm valves are also seen on the carburetors of
metric cruisers, but the owners complain about backfiring in the
exhaust system.

A lot of the banging and farting in the exhaust system result from the
ignition system firing an extra "waste spark" when the exhaust valve
is open. If there is a lot of unburned gasoline in the exhaust pipe,
it's going to backfire.
>
> Is the odor of gas on the air filter something I need to be concerned about?

If your engine oil smells like gasoline, it's diluted and isn't
lubricating as well.

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Albrecht

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 61



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:23 am
Post subject: Re: gas in air filter? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Apr 19, 4:51�am, "Ed Chait" <edchait4rem....DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Albrecht" <von.rae....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >Shimming the needle to richen up the midrange on a streetbike equipped
> >with *diaphragm carbs* is an urban myth perpetuated by people who want
> >to sound authoritative.
>
> Before I shimmed the needle, the bike would surge at a constant throttle
> setting.  Shimming the needle completely cured that.

Surging at constant throttle indicates a lean mixture. Screwing out
the idle mixture screw will richen up the idle mixture. Shimming the
needle doesn't do anything at all if the vacuum slide doesn't lift the
needle high enough to pull the tapered part out of the needle jet.

Gawd only knows what position the jet needle is in at lower RPM, with
those vacuum pulses occurring so infrequently. I was amazed to see the
vacuum slide jumping up and down violently as my KLR's engine idled
with the rubber boot connecting the carb to the airbox removed.
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Ed Chait

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Since: May 19, 2005
Posts: 18



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:07 am
Post subject: Re: gas in air filter? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Albrecht" <von.raeder.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>Shimming the needle to richen up the midrange on a streetbike equipped
>with *diaphragm carbs* is an urban myth perpetuated by people who want
>to sound authoritative.

Before I shimmed the needle, the bike would surge at a constant throttle
setting. Shimming the needle completely cured that.




>What does your oil smell like? Maybe your float valve is stuck open
>and you're getting the gasoline fumes from the crankcase breather
>hose?

The oil smells like oil and does not seem to be diluted.


>
> The bike runs great. I can start it with little or no enrichener and it
> warms up quickly.

>That indicates your idle mixture may be too rich. The starting
>enrichener is NOT really intended to be used in any position except
>fully open or fully closed. When starting, you should open the
>enrichener fully, and leave the twist grip alone.

The owner's manual explicitly states to keep the rpm's at 2000 when warming
the bike up. If the enrichener is opened full up, the rpm's will go way
over 2000. This was also the case when the bike was completely stock, with
stock carb setting. The only way to keep the rpm's at or below 2000 when
warming up is to modulate the enrichener.
I
>You're the only one who knows the answer to the following questions.
>Did the engine idle too slow after you opened the idle mixture screw
>to 2.5 turns out? Did you turn the idle speed screw to adjust the idle
>up? Does the engine sometimes idle far too fast for a long time after
>you close the throttle when the engine is warmed up?

No, it didn't idle too slow after opening it up to 2.5 turns. No, it
doesn't idle too fast or long when I chop the throttle. The rpm's drop
quickly and throttle response is excellent.





>My KLR always farted out the exhaust on trailing throttle from the day
>I got it. There is a vacuum operated diaphragm valve on the side of
>the carburetor that is supposed to reduce air to the idle mixture
>circuits on trailing throttle, but it doesn't seem to do much of
>anything. These diaphragm valves are also seen on the carburetors of
>metric cruisers, but the owners complain about backfiring in the
>exhaust system.

I've heard other KLR owners who relate the same experience with their KLR's.
The occasional fart was much more subdued with the stock boat anchor
exhaust. It is louder with my current Supertrapp. I won't worry about it.

>A lot of the banging and farting in the exhaust system result from the
>ignition system firing an extra "waste spark" when the exhaust valve
>is open. If there is a lot of unburned gasoline in the exhaust pipe,
>it's going to backfire.

I strongly suspect that is the case.


Is the odor of gas on the air filter something I need to be concerned
about?

>If your engine oil smells like gasoline, it's diluted and isn't
>lubricating as well.

Nope, the oil is fine.

thanks for your prompt and thorough response.

Ed Chait
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Moon Badger

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Since: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 43



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:50 pm
Post subject: Re: gas in air filter? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Ed Chait wrote:

> I have a 2003 Kawasaki KLR-650 that I have modified by adjusting the idle
> mixture screw on the carburator to 2.5 turns out (as is generally
> recommended by KLR owners) and have also richened up the midrange by
> shimming the needle. This is a California bike that was typically
> delivered with very lean jetting.
>
> I went to service my air filter today and noticed that the foam filter
> smelled like gasoline. It wasn't drenched or anything like that, but it
> had a strong gasoline odor.
>
> The bike runs great. I can start it with little or no enrichener and it
> warms up quickly. It will occasionally backfire through the exhaust on
> trailing throttle but only occasionally and otherwise runs great through
> the entire rpm range.
>
> Is the odor of gas on the air filter something I need to be concerned
> about?
>
> Ed Chait

Although there are a few ways to get a stinky filter, the most common two in
my experience are utterly trivial and nothing to be concerned about.

First one is the engine breather. This is quite normal. Do you have a horrid
residue at the base of your airbox, and have you drained the airbox
recently. Of course, if your engine vents to atmosphere, discount that.

The other is blowback. Again, a small amount is normal. As the mixture blows
back, it tends to pick up a bit more fuel. If your air filter gets even the
smallest amount of fuel on it, it stinks. For a long time.

Does it smell of fresh fuel or nasty stale fuel?. If the former, it may just
be a bit of blowback. Nowt to worry about. If the latter, and it is a nasty
smell, again, nowt to worry about.

The most telling things are that it isn't piss wet through and your bike
runs well throughout the rev range. Satisfy yourself all is well and ride
the thing.

HTH
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Ed Chait

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Since: May 19, 2005
Posts: 18



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:50 pm
Post subject: Re: gas in air filter? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Albrecht" <von.raeder DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176996195.465374.321470@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 19, 4:51?am, "Ed Chait" <edchait4rem... DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Albrecht" <von.rae... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> >Shimming the needle to richen up the midrange on a streetbike equipped
> >with *diaphragm carbs* is an urban myth perpetuated by people who want
> >to sound authoritative.
>
> Before I shimmed the needle, the bike would surge at a constant throttle
> setting. Shimming the needle completely cured that.

Surging at constant throttle indicates a lean mixture. Screwing out
the idle mixture screw will richen up the idle mixture. Shimming the
needle doesn't do anything at all if the vacuum slide doesn't lift the
needle high enough to pull the tapered part out of the needle jet.

Gawd only knows what position the jet needle is in at lower RPM, with
those vacuum pulses occurring so infrequently. I was amazed to see the
vacuum slide jumping up and down violently as my KLR's engine idled
with the rubber boot connecting the carb to the airbox removed.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Well, all I can tell ya is that I opened up the idle mixture screw before I
shimmed the needle and that did nothing to cure the surging. It was
definitely shimming the needle that fixed that.

As to power pulses, that's why I'm partial to singles and twins:).

Ed Chait
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Ed Chait

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Since: May 19, 2005
Posts: 18



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:50 pm
Post subject: Re: gas in air filter? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Moon Badger" <not.valid.TakeThisOut@all.com.net.org> wrote in message
news:f08daq$2h7$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> Ed Chait wrote:
>
>> I have a 2003 Kawasaki KLR-650 that I have modified by adjusting the idle
>> mixture screw on the carburator to 2.5 turns out (as is generally
>> recommended by KLR owners) and have also richened up the midrange by
>> shimming the needle. This is a California bike that was typically
>> delivered with very lean jetting.
>>
>> I went to service my air filter today and noticed that the foam filter
>> smelled like gasoline. It wasn't drenched or anything like that, but it
>> had a strong gasoline odor.
>>
>> The bike runs great. I can start it with little or no enrichener and it
>> warms up quickly. It will occasionally backfire through the exhaust on
>> trailing throttle but only occasionally and otherwise runs great through
>> the entire rpm range.
>>
>> Is the odor of gas on the air filter something I need to be concerned
>> about?
>>
>> Ed Chait
>
> Although there are a few ways to get a stinky filter, the most common two
> in
> my experience are utterly trivial and nothing to be concerned about.
>
> First one is the engine breather. This is quite normal. Do you have a
> horrid
> residue at the base of your airbox, and have you drained the airbox
> recently. Of course, if your engine vents to atmosphere, discount that.
>
> The other is blowback. Again, a small amount is normal. As the mixture
> blows
> back, it tends to pick up a bit more fuel. If your air filter gets even
> the
> smallest amount of fuel on it, it stinks. For a long time.
>
> Does it smell of fresh fuel or nasty stale fuel?. If the former, it may
> just
> be a bit of blowback. Nowt to worry about. If the latter, and it is a
> nasty
> smell, again, nowt to worry about.
>
> The most telling things are that it isn't piss wet through and your bike
> runs well throughout the rev range. Satisfy yourself all is well and ride
> the thing.
>
> HTH

Thanks for your response.

The filter smelled of fresh gas, not stale. The airbox was clean as a
whistle with no residue except for the normal light coating of dust.

I just thought of something else. This is a California model KLR that has
the tank venting to a canister that vents to the airbox. I bet the smell is
coming from that emissions canister, particularly since I just filled the
tank to the very top before servicing the air filter.

thanks again,

Ed Chait
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Moon Badger

External


Since: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 43



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:57 pm
Post subject: Re: gas in air filter? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ed Chait wrote:

>
> "Moon Badger" <not.valid.TakeThisOut@all.com.net.org> wrote in message
> news:f08daq$2h7$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Ed Chait wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 2003 Kawasaki KLR-650 that I have modified by adjusting the

<snip>


>
> The filter smelled of fresh gas, not stale. The airbox was clean as a
> whistle with no residue except for the normal light coating of dust.
>
> I just thought of something else. This is a California model KLR that has
> the tank venting to a canister that vents to the airbox. I bet the smell
> is coming from that emissions canister, particularly since I just filled
> the tank to the very top before servicing the air filter.
>
> thanks again,
>
> Ed Chait

Heh, you left a big enough clue with the reference to it being a California
model. I forgot about the gubbins that comes attached to them.

Enjoy your bike.
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