Any future in air-cooled?

"The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmailbox RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1icvs5e.1w7m7lslquo04N%totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk...
>I was just wondering, looking at that new Honda 1100cc thing, that's
> air-cooled, due to some rather clever ducting between the barrels...
>
> I mean, the Japanese have been building four-stroke fours for nearly 35
> years now, and with modern pollution (noise, exhaust) I thought
> watercooled was here to stay.
>
> But I suppose if you're not after ultimate power, air-cooled may still
> have a future. After all, more power = more noise, so a softly tuned
> bike...
>
> Thoughts, anyone?
>
>
> --
> BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
> GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
> BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
> chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
I don't know what new 1100 you're talking about, the Honda showroom hasn't
changed much here in the States since the ST 1300 came out. I think
air-cooled will have limited appeal for manufacturers going forward,
especially on larger mills due to engine management and pollution control
across a wide variation of operating temperatures and conditions. This, and
I think we will see manufacturers try to consolidate their engine designs as
much as possible to lower manufacturing costs. So in answer to your
question, I think aircooled engines will be primarily relegated to smaller
cc and low end bikes.

I currently have three bikes in my garage and they are all air or air/oil
cooled and the two larger bikes have minor heat-related issues. The pipes
on my 1150 Beemer will occaisionaly turn cherry red in slow traffic on warm
days and my Harley gets hot on the legs when it gets over 80 or 85 degrees.
I've also seen Harleys suffer in slow traffic (like at Sturgis) to the
extent that the riders pull over for a cool-down,but this hasn't happened to
me. Both of these engines were initially designed a long time ago and the
engineers have now pretty much pushed the design to their limits.

The smaller bike, the 250 cc Honda Rebel, that I got for my daughter, seems
indifferent to ambient temps but leaves something desired when hauling my
225+lb ass around at freeway speeds.
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

LJ wrote:
> "The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmailbox DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1icvs5e.1w7m7lslquo04N%totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk...
>> I was just wondering, looking at that new Honda 1100cc thing, that's
>> air-cooled, due to some rather clever ducting between the barrels...
>>
>> I mean, the Japanese have been building four-stroke fours for nearly 35
>> years now, and with modern pollution (noise, exhaust) I thought
>> watercooled was here to stay.
>>
>> But I suppose if you're not after ultimate power, air-cooled may still
>> have a future. After all, more power = more noise, so a softly tuned
>> bike...
>>
>> Thoughts, anyone?
>>

> I don't know what new 1100 you're talking about, the Honda showroom hasn't

Perhaps the CB1100F and CB1100R?

http://motorcycles.about.com/od/conceptbikegalleries/ig/2007-Tokyo-Mot...Show-Ho

--
'01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

LJ <laremoDelete DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don't know what new 1100 you're talking about, the Honda showroom hasn't
> changed much here in the States since the ST 1300 came out. I

See Mark Olson''s post.

>I think
> air-cooled will have limited appeal for manufacturers going forward,
> especially on larger mills due to engine management and pollution control
> across a wide variation of operating temperatures and conditions.

Agreed, but I also think these new Hondas will show that air-cooled can
be done, if ultimate performance is not the aim. And obviously they look
great on retro bikes.

> This, and
> I think we will see manufacturers try to consolidate their engine designs as
> much as possible to lower manufacturing costs.

Disagree here. To an extent. You'll see engines being spread across a
number of designs, but that's nothing new. Think what Kawasaki did with
the original Z650 lump, for example.

>So in answer to your
> question, I think aircooled engines will be primarily relegated to smaller
> cc and low end bikes.

Agreed, but there may be exceptions.
>
> I currently have three bikes in my garage and they are all air or air/oil
> cooled and the two larger bikes have minor heat-related issues. The pipes
> on my 1150 Beemer will occaisionaly turn cherry red in slow traffic on warm
> days and my Harley gets hot on the legs when it gets over 80 or 85 degrees.
> I've also seen Harleys suffer in slow traffic (like at Sturgis) to the
> extent that the riders pull over for a cool-down,but this hasn't happened to
> me. Both of these engines were initially designed a long time ago and the
> engineers have now pretty much pushed the design to their limits.

The 11050 Beemer engine isn't that old. The Harley is a certified museum
piece, and one reason why it passes noise and emission tests is that it
develops sod-all power for a thing that big.
>
> The smaller bike, the 250 cc Honda Rebel, that I got for my daughter, seems
> indifferent to ambient temps but leaves something desired when hauling my
> 225+lb ass around at freeway speeds.

Heh. I've just passed my Honda CD250U to my teenage son. Same engine.


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

Mark Olson <olsonm RemoveThis @tiny.invalid> wrote:

> > I don't know what new 1100 you're talking about, the Honda showroom hasn't
>
> Perhaps the CB1100F and CB1100R?
>
>
http://motorcycles.about.com/od/conceptbikegalleries/ig/2007-Tokyo-Motor
-Show-Hondas/index.htm

The R version looks gorgeous.

--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

On 26 Feb, 14:11, "Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot"
<eastREMOVEk....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:


>
> I had a thought about air-cooled recently, whilst warming up the beastie:
> how long can an air-cooled bike engine be left running if the bike's not
> moving? Got me quite paranoid, that did.

Good question. What you will get is more localised hotspots, without a
circulating coolant to even things out. But thenthere areplenty of air-
cooled engines that are designed to run indefinitely without moving.
Think small power generators. I suppose it depends on whether they're
super-powerful or not. I do know that some aircraft turbofans can't be
run at full throttle on the ground for more than a few seconds or they
overheat and go pop.

>
> Oh, and I'm all in favour of air-cooled engines, but then I'm in favour of
> two strokes too. Manufacturers are obviously keen to shave off weight
> wherever they can on certain bikes and water cooling and its associated
> gubbins must add a fair bit to the weight...
>
Counterbalanced by the need not to add acres of heavy cylinder
finning, though. And the water jackets themselves are (obviously!)
hollow, so light.

I'm amazed by how far the Japs have come with their watercooled fours,
since the mid-1970s. Not just in terms of power, but also reduced
weight. Mind you, that applies to just about every aspect of Jap bike
technology.
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

On 26 Feb, 17:03, "Ken Abrams" <harvest_t....TakeThisOut@scum.suckers> wrote:
> "TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmail....TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
>
> > But thenthere areplenty of air-
> > cooled engines that are designed to run indefinitely without moving.
>
> Ah yes, but they have FANS.....often integrated with the flywheel.
> Except for a tiny few, air cooled bikes are missing fans.

Ah, yes, that's true. Still, as you say, the engine doesn't make much
heat at idle and the rest of the mass will soak it up. A hell of a lot
of scooters are still fan-cooled, I think. Not really my area of
interest.

Actually, and here's a little interesting question (x-posted to
reeky).

What was the first Japanese water-cooled four cylinder four-stroke
motorcycle?
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

On Feb 26, 12:28 pm, "TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmail... DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Actually, and here's a little interesting question (x-posted to
> reeky).
>
> What was the first Japanese water-cooled four cylinder four-stroke
> motorcycle?

In mass production, iirc, the 1984 Kawasaki GPZ900, in the U.S. known
as the Ninja 900.
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

On Feb 26, 12:49 pm, Bob Scott <B... RemoveThis @bobandaileen.co.uk> wrote:
> tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com <tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com> writes
>
> >On Feb 26, 12:28 pm, "TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmail... RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk>
> >wrote:
>
> >> Actually, and here's a little interesting question (x-posted to
> >> reeky).
>
> >> What was the first Japanese water-cooled four cylinder four-stroke
> >> motorcycle?
>
> >In mass production, iirc, the 1984 Kawasaki GPZ900, in the U.S. known
> >as the Ninja 900.
>
> Nah, previous decade, different factory & different engine layout.
>
> GL1000?

Argh! And I even *HAD* a second-year (1976) example! Of course, my
blind spot was blithely thinking ONLY of inline fours!
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

On Feb 26, 2:14 pm, totallydeadmail... RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk (The Older
Gentleman) wrote:
> tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com <tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 26, 12:28 pm, "TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmail... RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Actually, and here's a little interesting question (x-posted to
> > > reeky).
>
> > > What was the first Japanese water-cooled four cylinder four-stroke
> > > motorcycle?
>
> > In mass production, iirc, the 1984 Kawasaki GPZ900, in the U.S. known
> > as the Ninja 900.
>
> Wrong!

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Serves me right for not thinking more critically!
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

The Older Gentleman wrote:
> I was just wondering, looking at that new Honda 1100cc thing, that's
> air-cooled, due to some rather clever ducting between the barrels...
>
> I mean, the Japanese have been building four-stroke fours for nearly 35
> years now, and with modern pollution (noise, exhaust) I thought
> watercooled was here to stay.
>
> But I suppose if you're not after ultimate power, air-cooled may still
> have a future. After all, more power = more noise, so a softly tuned
> bike...
>
> Thoughts, anyone?
>
>

Maybe not what you mean by a future: While I was doing "A mouse forever
clicking" thing I came across a company, in tw I think, that was still
making 250cc air cooled 2 strokes. There will always be a market where
performance, pollution, and mileage don't matter.

In these days of 'lean burn' and 'stratified charge' engines I doubt it.
I mean there will always be a niche market for air cooled but the
conditions that exist now in regards to fuel efficiency and polution are
making it difficult. Just as an example of how far it can go, Los
Angeles banned smoking from public beaches because of health and
pollution concerns.

What your question becomes is "Well there be a break through that will
allow an engine that operates from 150 to 210 degrees to run as
efficiently as one that operates at a fixed temperature?" I say no just
from simple guessimates that we use in chemistry. 1st guessimate is the
rate of reaction doubles for every 10 degrees F. I say it is a given
modern engines are going to run at fairly high compression so expecting
the burn to be clean and not detonate over that range is a bit much.

There have been systems in the past that have addressed this. Just for
example there were tractors that started on gas and after they came up
to operating temperature could be switched over to kerosine. It was more
about kerosine being cheaper at the time then efficiency but never the
less you could do something like that. Problem is when you are going to
the complexity of blending fuels on the fly to compensate for operating
temperature fluxuation, you might as well go water cooled with a
thermostat.

Rick
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

The Older Gentleman wrote:
> I was just wondering, looking at that new Honda 1100cc thing, that's
> air-cooled, due to some rather clever ducting between the barrels...
>
> I mean, the Japanese have been building four-stroke fours for nearly
> 35 years now, and with modern pollution (noise, exhaust) I thought
> watercooled was here to stay.
>
> But I suppose if you're not after ultimate power, air-cooled may still
> have a future. After all, more power = more noise, so a softly tuned
> bike...
>
> Thoughts, anyone?

I had a thought about air-cooled recently, whilst warming up the beastie:
how long can an air-cooled bike engine be left running if the bike's not
moving? Got me quite paranoid, that did.

Oh, and I'm all in favour of air-cooled engines, but then I'm in favour of
two strokes too. Manufacturers are obviously keen to shave off weight
wherever they can on certain bikes and water cooling and its associated
gubbins must add a fair bit to the weight...

--
Si - XV535
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

"TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmailbox DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote

> But thenthere areplenty of air-
> cooled engines that are designed to run indefinitely without moving.

Ah yes, but they have FANS.....often integrated with the flywheel.
Except for a tiny few, air cooled bikes are missing fans.
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled? 

"Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot" <eastREMOVEkent.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote

> I had a thought about air-cooled recently, whilst warming up the beastie:
> how long can an air-cooled bike engine be left running if the bike's not
> moving? Got me quite paranoid, that did.
>

Don't Panic!
No cause for concern.....in any normal situation, that is.
The engine doesn't make "much" heat at idle.
You still get some cooling from simple convection.
All the mass of the engine, oil, tranny, etc. will "sink" the heat for a
while and the give it up when moving.
Having said that, I still turn mine off if stopped for a LONG train, etc.
 >> Stay informed about: Any future in air-cooled?