liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles

Theo Bekkers wrote:
> You'll find that most in-line 45º air-cooled twins have a lower compression
> ratio in the rear cylinder. Why do you think they would do that?
>
> Ariel fours didn't have overheating problems? It was the primary cause of
> their demise. The TX750 was better cooled.
>
> Theo
>
>
Who cares what it takes to make a design work. Ducatis had different
sized main jets to balance heating, and they go alright.
TX750 could not be fixed, even with myriad after sale modifications.
Factory bulletins that were sent to dealers, with suggested mods to
improve matters, far exceeded the size of the factory service manual,
like about x3. Even fitting a factory oil radiator on the later models
didn't help. They DNF'd at the Castrol 6 hour race. Nice that you defend
them though - they sure were a handsome bike. I haven't seen one for
decades, but do see the odd Ariel 4, even though they're much older than
the Yamaha.
The point is, apart from only one serious example I can think of, of a
complete dud due to overheating, air cooling is proven, simple, and
looks better IMO.
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

Theo Bekkers wrote:
> atec77 wrote:
>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
>>> You'll find that most in-line 45º air-cooled twins have a lower
>>> compression ratio in the rear cylinder. Why do you think they would
>>> do that?
>
>> Mine certainly doesn't , do you have a cite ?
>
> Not on line, but I've read it several times in different publications on
> motorcycle and other engine design. Apparently it's quite common to have
> different compression ratios in cylinders. eg, my 230S Merc has the cast
> iron straight six. Compression ratio is 10:1. If you read the workshop
> manual you find that cyl # 1 is 9.5:1, #2 is 9.75:1, the rest are 10:1. This
> is because the front end of the engine is hotter in operation to the back
> end, so they compensate by not working the front end as hard.
>
> Cheers
> Theo
>
>
In the downloadable manual for the 230s it fails to mention differing
compression , my 450Sle all has the identical compression on 8 cylinders
but then the 230 is sorta the corolla of the breed and certainly all
my Jags run the same comprssion in the six cylinder motors.

I really would like to see a cite/manual with mention as the internal
difference required to result in these differences would I expect
introduce a whole new and interesting set of harmonics and strains in
the general running of the motor would it not ? . One would think the
right engineering solution would be to effect proper cooling rather than
altering compression ?.
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

On Feb 18, 8:32 pm, "DJ" <mrj... RemoveThis @bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> I kinda don't blame you for being skepticle regarding my mate's radiator
> dramas, and I must admit, i Didin't get the full details only that he said
> that he was quoted about $1200 for a new radiator
> His bike is a ZRX1200 (the green machine) about 3-4 yrs old now, cooled but was wondering if it was actually any better in general.
>
> I'll check out ebay for him as I don't think he has good internet coverage
> where he lives.I think he's still on dial-up.

If you're anywhere near Sydney I can give you the details of a
radiator repairer in Hornsby who has reconditioned one of mine, and 4
mates rads ( car and bike). If you're out in the sticks I suggest
shipping it to a major city if there's nothing nearby - it shouldn't
cost more than a couple of hundred at worst unless the whole bike went
under a truck (in which case the radiator is the least of his
problems).

JL
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

In article <47b61689$0$12282$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
"DJ" <mrjay1.DeleteThis@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> I'm considering bikes with aircooling rather than liquid cooling engines.
> Is this a good idea? or not?

I think it's a pretty poor deciding factor when choosing a bike.

You've got a budget and you've got your "touring and commuting"
requirements - there's no advantage to be gained by limiting your choice
further due to a mates bad luck (and, as Marko points out, accepting a
dealerships repair quotes without looking for sensible alternatives).

For ~$5k to spend for a "mainly touring" bike, I'd be looking at VFR750s
or 800s, or ZX9s - whatever the newest and best condition one you can
find in your price range.

Don't worry about water cooling.

big

--
"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history,
all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled,
watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people
you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com)
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

atec77 wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>> atec77 wrote:
>>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>>
>>>> You'll find that most in-line 45º air-cooled twins have a lower
>>>> compression ratio in the rear cylinder. Why do you think they would
>>>> do that?
>>
>>> Mine certainly doesn't , do you have a cite ?
>>
>> Not on line, but I've read it several times in different
>> publications on motorcycle and other engine design. Apparently it's
>> quite common to have different compression ratios in cylinders. eg,
>> my 230S Merc has the cast iron straight six. Compression ratio is
>> 10:1. If you read the workshop manual you find that cyl # 1 is
>> 9.5:1, #2 is 9.75:1, the rest are 10:1. This is because the front
>> end of the engine is hotter in operation to the back end, so they
>> compensate by not working the front end as hard.

> In the downloadable manual for the 230s it fails to mention differing
> compression , my 450Sle all has the identical compression on 8
> cylinders but then the 230 is sorta the corolla of the breed

Ahh, sorry. I'm talking about the 60s six cylinder models, not the current
stuff.

> and
> certainly all my Jags run the same comprssion in the six cylinder
> motors.
> I really would like to see a cite/manual with mention as the internal
> difference required to result in these differences would I expect
> introduce a whole new and interesting set of harmonics and strains in
> the general running of the motor would it not ? . One would think the
> right engineering solution would be to effect proper cooling rather
> than altering compression ?.

I have a 230S and a 220SE Manual and they both give lower figures for the
first two cylinders. Let's face it, it's not something you're going to make
up.

Theo
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

In article <47b906b5 RemoveThis @news.bekkers.com.au>,
"Theo Bekkers" <tbekkers RemoveThis @bekkers.com.au> wrote:

> atec77 wrote:
> > Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> >> You'll find that most in-line 45º air-cooled twins have a lower
> >> compression ratio in the rear cylinder. Why do you think they would
> >> do that?
>
> > Mine certainly doesn't , do you have a cite ?
>
> Not on line, but I've read it several times in different publications on
> motorcycle and other engine design. Apparently it's quite common to have
> different compression ratios in cylinders. eg, my 230S Merc has the cast
> iron straight six. Compression ratio is 10:1. If you read the workshop
> manual you find that cyl # 1 is 9.5:1, #2 is 9.75:1, the rest are 10:1. This
> is because the front end of the engine is hotter in operation to the back
> end, so they compensate by not working the front end as hard.

VW beetles (old ones like my old '72, I dunno anything about the new
ones) had slightly different valve timing on the (I think) #3 cylinder
'cause the warm air from the oil cooler blew on it where the other 3
cylinders all got fresh cool air...

big

--
"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history,
all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled,
watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people
you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com)
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

"Theo Bekkers" <tbekkers.DeleteThis@bekkers.com.au> wrote:

> Let's face it, it's not something you're going to make up.

Awww, come on Theo! We _all_ know you're just some schoolkid sneaking a
go of daddys computer before he gets home from work who'll make up
_anything_ to win another internet argement!

You might want to try "atec77 IZ THE SUKZOR!!!" -that's _sure_ to win
the argument!



big

--
"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history,
all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled,
watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people
you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com)
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

Theo Bekkers wrote:
> atec77 wrote:
>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>>> atec77 wrote:
>>>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>>>>> You'll find that most in-line 45º air-cooled twins have a lower
>>>>> compression ratio in the rear cylinder. Why do you think they would
>>>>> do that?
>>>> Mine certainly doesn't , do you have a cite ?
>>> Not on line, but I've read it several times in different
>>> publications on motorcycle and other engine design. Apparently it's
>>> quite common to have different compression ratios in cylinders. eg,
>>> my 230S Merc has the cast iron straight six. Compression ratio is
>>> 10:1. If you read the workshop manual you find that cyl # 1 is
>>> 9.5:1, #2 is 9.75:1, the rest are 10:1. This is because the front
>>> end of the engine is hotter in operation to the back end, so they
>>> compensate by not working the front end as hard.
>
>> In the downloadable manual for the 230s it fails to mention differing
>> compression , my 450Sle all has the identical compression on 8
>> cylinders but then the 230 is sorta the corolla of the breed
>
> Ahh, sorry. I'm talking about the 60s six cylinder models, not the current
> stuff.
Yes I know what they are being an ex owner..
>
>> and
>> certainly all my Jags run the same comprssion in the six cylinder
>> motors.
>> I really would like to see a cite/manual with mention as the internal
>> difference required to result in these differences would I expect
>> introduce a whole new and interesting set of harmonics and strains in
>> the general running of the motor would it not ? . One would think the
>> right engineering solution would be to effect proper cooling rather
>> than altering compression ?.
>
> I have a 230S and a 220SE Manual and they both give lower figures for the
> first two cylinders. Let's face it, it's not something you're going to make
> up.
>
> Theo
where did I say that ?
just seems an odd way to fix a simple problem.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

Iain Chalmers wrote:
> In article <47b906b5.TakeThisOut@news.bekkers.com.au>,
> "Theo Bekkers" <tbekkers.TakeThisOut@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
>
>> atec77 wrote:
>>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>>>> You'll find that most in-line 45º air-cooled twins have a lower
>>>> compression ratio in the rear cylinder. Why do you think they would
>>>> do that?
>>> Mine certainly doesn't , do you have a cite ?
>> Not on line, but I've read it several times in different publications on
>> motorcycle and other engine design. Apparently it's quite common to have
>> different compression ratios in cylinders. eg, my 230S Merc has the cast
>> iron straight six. Compression ratio is 10:1. If you read the workshop
>> manual you find that cyl # 1 is 9.5:1, #2 is 9.75:1, the rest are 10:1. This
>> is because the front end of the engine is hotter in operation to the back
>> end, so they compensate by not working the front end as hard.
>
> VW beetles (old ones like my old '72, I dunno anything about the new
> ones) had slightly different valve timing on the (I think) #3 cylinder
> 'cause the warm air from the oil cooler blew on it where the other 3
> cylinders all got fresh cool air...
>
> big
>
Luxury . my old 57 small window didn't and made a whole 40 HP before we
re-powered it with a Chev .
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

Iain Chalmers wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>> Let's face it, it's not something you're going to make up.

> Awww, come on Theo! We _all_ know you're just some schoolkid sneaking
> a go of daddys computer before he gets home from work who'll make up
> _anything_ to win another internet argement!

I meant, not something someone makes up and prints in the manual. It's not
even something most people would think of. I remember the first time I read
it saying "What the...."

Theo
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atec77 wrote:
> Iain Chalmers wrote:

>> VW beetles (old ones like my old '72, I dunno anything about the new
>> ones) had slightly different valve timing on the (I think) #3
>> cylinder 'cause the warm air from the oil cooler blew on it where
>> the other 3 cylinders all got fresh cool air...

> Luxury . my old 57 small window didn't and made a whole 40 HP before
> we re-powered it with a Chev .

I thought they still had the 1100 cc 36hp motor then. My first beetle was a
60.

Theo
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

Theo Bekkers wrote:
> atec77 wrote:
>> Iain Chalmers wrote:
>
>>> VW beetles (old ones like my old '72, I dunno anything about the new
>>> ones) had slightly different valve timing on the (I think) #3
>>> cylinder 'cause the warm air from the oil cooler blew on it where
>>> the other 3 cylinders all got fresh cool air...
>
>> Luxury . my old 57 small window didn't and made a whole 40 HP before
>> we re-powered it with a Chev .
>
> I thought they still had the 1100 cc 36hp motor then. My first beetle was a
> 60.
>
> Theo
>
>
yup 36 but heads ported and a cam , then it broke the crank
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles 

Theo Bekkers wrote:
> Iain Chalmers wrote:
>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
>>> Let's face it, it's not something you're going to make up.
>
>> Awww, come on Theo! We _all_ know you're just some schoolkid sneaking
>> a go of daddys computer before he gets home from work who'll make up
>> _anything_ to win another internet argement!
>
> I meant, not something someone makes up and prints in the manual. It's not
> even something most people would think of. I remember the first time I read
> it saying "What the...."
>
> Theo
>
>
A compression and leak down test
would sort it out , off you go thanks .
 >> Stay informed about: liquid Vs Aircooled motorcycles