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T3

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Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 87



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:16 pm
Post subject: So, who you like?
Archived from groups: rec>motorcycles>racing (more info?)

With MGP almost all over, but the shouting and no one caring a whole bunch
about WSB, who do you guys think will come away from 'Guna with the SB
crown?

Conventional wisdom says Mat and "MO" speaks kinda' loud too, but I get the
feeling "somethin's" gonna happen and Spies will end up with it, that said,
I wouldn't bet more than a beer...

It ought to be good and as much as I dislike Laguna, I'm just sooo glad it's
not happening at M/O!

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just bob

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Since: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 51



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:16 pm
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"T3" <nothere.TakeThisOut@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:46e6e9a4$0$17119$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> With MGP almost all over, but the shouting and no one caring a whole bunch
> about WSB, who do you guys think will come away from 'Guna with the SB
> crown?
>
> Conventional wisdom says Mat and "MO" speaks kinda' loud too, but I get
> the feeling "somethin's" gonna happen and Spies will end up with it, that
> said, I wouldn't bet more than a beer...
>
> It ought to be good and as much as I dislike Laguna, I'm just sooo glad
> it's not happening at M/O!

I care less about the AMA than the WSB but I admit I fell asleep trying to
watch the last round and have not gone back to watch it yet!

I would be going to "guna" this weekend if it was not on an important date
for my family, but I didn't scream real hard like I could have if I had
really wanted to get out of it. So, yes, for MotoGP or WSB I'll cause
trouble in the household but not for the AMA. Smile

Did I read that Zemke's seat has been given away?

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T3

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Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 87



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:01 pm
Post subject: Re: So, who you like? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"just bob" <kilbyfan@aoldotcom> wrote in message
news:46e70621$0$27242$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> "T3" <nothere DeleteThis @nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:46e6e9a4$0$17119$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> With MGP almost all over, but the shouting and no one caring a whole
>> bunch about WSB, who do you guys think will come away from 'Guna with the
>> SB crown?
>>
>> Conventional wisdom says Mat and "MO" speaks kinda' loud too, but I get
>> the feeling "somethin's" gonna happen and Spies will end up with it, that
>> said, I wouldn't bet more than a beer...
>>
>> It ought to be good and as much as I dislike Laguna, I'm just sooo glad
>> it's not happening at M/O!
>
> I care less about the AMA than the WSB but I admit I fell asleep trying to
> watch the last round and have not gone back to watch it yet!
>
> I would be going to "guna" this weekend if it was not on an important date
> for my family, but I didn't scream real hard like I could have if I had
> really wanted to get out of it. So, yes, for MotoGP or WSB I'll cause
> trouble in the household but not for the AMA. Smile

Sorry you feel like that, but it's understandable..
>
> Did I read that Zemke's seat has been given away?

Actually, not "given" away, they (HRC/US) paid a boatload of buck$, to of
all things, a Limey. Go figure...



Guv, written in jest...
>
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Mark N

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Since: Mar 05, 2005
Posts: 777



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:01 pm
Post subject: Re: So, who you like? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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T3 wrote:
> "just bob" <killjoyfan@aoldotcom> wrote
>> "T3" <noclue RemoveThis @nowhere.net> wrote
>>> With MGP almost all over, but the shouting and no one caring a whole
>>> bunch about WSB, who do you guys think will come away from 'Guna with the
>>> SB crown?
>>>
>>> Conventional wisdom says Mat and "MO" speaks kinda' loud too, but I get
>>> the feeling "somethin's" gonna happen and Spies will end up with it, that
>>> said, I wouldn't bet more than a beer...
>>>
>>> It ought to be good and as much as I dislike Laguna, I'm just sooo glad
>>> it's not happening at M/O!

>> I care less about the AMA than the WSB but I admit I fell asleep trying to
>> watch the last round and have not gone back to watch it yet!
>>
>> I would be going to "guna" this weekend if it was not on an important date
>> for my family, but I didn't scream real hard like I could have if I had
>> really wanted to get out of it. So, yes, for MotoGP or WSB I'll cause
>> trouble in the household but not for the AMA. Smile
>
> Sorry you feel like that, but it's understandable..

You guys are just pathetic, frankly I just don't understand what you
want. What we have is a winner-take-all grudge match, with both guys on
the same equipment. One of those guys is almost hands-down the best
rider in this decade not to have raced in 500/MotoGP, and quite likely
one of the best half-dozen road racers in the world in that time. And a
lot of people are saying they've never seen him better than he is now.
The other is hands-down the best young rider outside of MotoGP today,
and a guy who probably is headed that way in another year. One has huge
momentum on his side, but the other has a decided track advantage, it
seems, even if just in their heads, so it could hardly be set up any
better. The winner between the two will take the championship (almost
certainly), and it's unlikely that anyone else will get in the middle of
their fight.

There hasn't been a situation like this in the AMA since Bostrom and
Chandler came into PPIR at the end of 1998 tied in points. But Mladin
and Spies have won every race this year, while those two only won one
between them that year. In 1996 it came down to Chandler and Duhamel in
the same winner-take-all situation at Vegas, and before that it was
James vs. Corser at Road Atlanta in 1994. But we probably haven't had
quite the same kind of high-level championship fight between two guys
since the late '80s, and Rainey vs. Schwantz in '87 only technically
came down to the last race, with Rainey coming in leading by something
like 20 points.

Compare that to MotoGP, where last year's championship came down to the
last race for only the second time in nearly 20 years, never mind
winner-take-all. Or WSB, which hasn't seen a real championship fight
since Edwards vs. Bayliss five years ago. This one has bounced back and
forth all year, with Spies leading most of the year but Mladin winning
most of the races, and the high-drama of the Mladin crash at Daytona and
more so at Miller, the Spies crash at Road America and the subsequent
win in the rain the next day, and his crash at Road Atlanta and comeback
after that. Great stuff, and they come out of all that almost dead-even.

So now it's down to one race, guaranteed good weather at a track that is
one of the best and most-dramatic in this country, a track that will
test them beyond testing each other. If Mladin wins on Sunday, he merely
sets new records for SB wins in a season, consecutive SB wins, career SB
wins, and career SB championships. If Spies wins, he will have taken the
best shot from the best in AMA history and still come out on top. And
you guys aren't that interested?? I mean, if you don't like racing at
this level, what are you even doing around here?
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Dave

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Since: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 13



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:24 pm
Post subject: Re: So, who you like? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:16:33 -0400, "T3" <nothere.RemoveThis@nowhere.net> wrote:

>With MGP almost all over, but the shouting and no one caring a whole bunch
>about WSB, who do you guys think will come away from 'Guna with the SB
>crown?
>
>Conventional wisdom says Mat and "MO" speaks kinda' loud too, but I get the
>feeling "somethin's" gonna happen and Spies will end up with it, that said,
>I wouldn't bet more than a beer...
>
>It ought to be good and as much as I dislike Laguna, I'm just sooo glad it's
>not happening at M/O!
>

Even though the racing has been entirely about two guys this year, you
gotta say this is as good as it gets. It's the winner-takes-all
showdown we were hoping for earlier this season.

If I'm not mistaken Mat leads by three, right? He also owns the
tie-breaker. So, assuming Mat and Ben go one two in the race which
seems likely based on the whole season thus far, Ben needs one of the
two bonus points to win the championship.

If Ben takes pole then it's winner takes all for the championship.
If Mat takes pole then Ben needs to take laps led and win.
If Mat takes pole and laps led he only needs to finish second.

Mat's in the drivers seats, but Ben has been slightly better at Laguna
of late. It's a tough call.
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carlsun

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Since: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 158



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:15 pm
Post subject: Re: So, who you like? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Mark N" <menusbaum RemoveThis @NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13eee1mcdbv5l33@corp.supernews.com...
>
> The other is hands-down the best young rider outside of MotoGP today,

I hardly see that as a unanimous opinion.

>
> There hasn't been a situation like this in the AMA since Bostrom and
> Chandler came into PPIR at the end of 1998 tied in points. But Mladin and
> Spies have won every race this year, while those two only won one between
> them that year. In 1996 it came down to Chandler and Duhamel in the same
> winner-take-all situation at Vegas, and before that it was James vs.
> Corser at Road Atlanta in 1994. But we probably haven't had quite the same
> kind of high-level championship fight between two guys since the late
> '80s, and Rainey vs. Schwantz in '87 only technically came down to the
> last race, with Rainey coming in leading by something like 20 points.

*Yawn* That's _so_ like watching "Classic NFL" on ESPN (or On Any Sunday
for the XXth or XXXth time). I'm excited about watching the finale in
Laguna, but wtf.
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T3

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Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 87



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:39 am
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"Mark N" <menusbaum.DeleteThis@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13eee1mcdbv5l33@corp.supernews.com...
>> Sorry you feel like that, but it's understandable..
>
> You guys are just pathetic, frankly I just don't understand what you want.

Nothing at the moment, looks like my "understandable" hooked a big ole
blowfish!

> So now it's down to one race, guaranteed good weather at a track that is
> one of the best and most-dramatic in this country, a track that will test
> them beyond testing each other.

OMG, guaranteed weather and the best track? The weather, my friend, is never
written in stone and calling the sand pit the best track is just your
opinion, going further to say it will somehow test the riders is pure
nonsense, bluster, or both..
(as far as the weather goes, the fans better hope it doesn't rain and not
just because the sand pit will turn into a mud hole either, as recent
history has shown, Proracing wilt's when wet;-)


If Mladin wins on Sunday, he merely
> sets new records for SB wins in a season, consecutive SB wins, career SB
> wins, and career SB championships. If Spies wins, he will have taken the
> best shot from the best in AMA history and still come out on top. And you
> guys aren't that interested?? I mean, if you don't like racing at this
> level, what are you even doing around here?

Uh, maybe you should reread the previous posts, I said it ought to be good,
Bob said he wasn't into AMA that much. I then saw an opportunity to fish and
look who/what I hooked!

In any event and getting back to the topic of the post, who do you like this
weekend? You've graced us with a weather forecast, rider appraisal and track
evaluation, now, how 'bout a pick?
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pablo

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Since: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 247



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:50 pm
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Logic says Mladin, but then again I seem to remember Spies doing well in
Laguna. It's close on points. Mladin has the advantage, but anything can
happen.

The eciting thing is that it is close. The boring thing is that the Yosh
Suzukis have been so darn superior.

My money's on Mladin, but I would not bet a lot.
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Bruce Hartweg

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Since: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 5



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:18 am
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pablo wrote:

>
> The eciting thing is that it is close. The boring thing is that the Yosh
> Suzukis have been so darn superior.
>

Yeah, like FX a couple of years ago. Jake & Miggy battled
all year - no-one else close (of course - no other factories
involved then). But the two of them took it down to the wire,
not only the last race, but down to the very last lap.

Thing is, they were actually close in races - not just points.
This year even tough the points are close, i can't recall a real
direct battle between Mat & Ben. It seems whichever one of them won,
it was generally a runaway.

Bruce
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T3

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Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 87



(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:43 am
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"pablo" <pabloAT.DeleteThis@simplyhombreDOT.net> wrote in message
news:a9idnYbvfrmiX3XbnZ2dnUVZ_uiknZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> Logic says Mladin, but then again I seem to remember Spies doing well in
> Laguna. It's close on points. Mladin has the advantage, but anything can
> happen.
>
> The eciting thing is that it is close. The boring thing is that the Yosh
> Suzukis have been so darn superior.
>
> My money's on Mladin, but I would not bet a lot.

I hear 'ya, Yosh dominance is gettin' a little old, but unless something
happens, or somebody takes a giant step we're prolly gonna see a repeat of
at least two of them on the box again and even though he was a time zone
back last time out MJ's Yates made it a tre' for 'Zuki, . What I'd hate to
see is for traffic, or lappers decide the title and with Laguna having a
whole slew of one-off locals usually running, not to mention not being one
of the faster tracks in AMA, that scenario is certainly possible. Be that as
it may, it still does have all the markings of the classic stuggle of youth
versus experience, even though it's a little ironic the reigning champ is
considered the underdog..

Checking Speed's coverage I see both SSport and SB are live Sunday and hat's
off to them for that, but with the SB pole point looming so huge it would've
have been great to see the Q too..

One things for certain, I won't be there, running all over Dixie last month
wiped me out financially, so it looks like ribs, beer and the tube for me
this Sunday....
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guig

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 96



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:58 pm
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DaveW

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Since: Mar 11, 2007
Posts: 14



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:49 pm
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On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:33:44 +0100, guig <guig.RemoveThis@yerawathame.com> wrote:

>They should watch rugby rather than NFL .... I went from rugby to NFL
>and back to rugby, no comparison in excitement, fitness, hits, rugby
>wins every time,

Then I'm gonna watch rugby from now on - I just wanna watch whoever
has the fittest guys!
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Mark N

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Since: Mar 05, 2005
Posts: 777



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:27 pm
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Bruce Hartweg wrote:
> pablo wrote:

>> The eciting thing is that it is close. The boring thing is that the
>> Yosh Suzukis have been so darn superior.

> Yeah, like FX a couple of years ago. Jake & Miggy battled
> all year - no-one else close (of course - no other factories
> involved then). But the two of them took it down to the wire,
> not only the last race, but down to the very last lap.
>
> Thing is, they were actually close in races - not just points.
> This year even tough the points are close, i can't recall a real
> direct battle between Mat & Ben. It seems whichever one of them won,
> it was generally a runaway.

Yeah, it sure seems like that, but I wondered if it's really true. So I
took a look at some numbers:

- Through 18 races, Mladin and Spies have led all but six laps. And
those six laps were at the very start of races, meaning once these guys
got by they were gone. Dropping those six laps, one of these two guys
led all the laps in 11 of the 18 races. The latest that there was a
change in the lead from this standpoint was at Mid-Ohio race one, where
Mladin took over on the 18th of 24 laps.

- At the finish, Mladin beat Spies by less than a second in 3 of the
first 5 races, and 4 races have been decided by less than 5 seconds
since. Which means 10 of 18 have had a margin of more than five seconds,
although only 3 have been decided by more than 10 seconds (not including
Daytona, where Mladin finished 10th and 46 seconds back and Spies beat
Duhamel by 3 seconds). The most common occurrence has been a margin of
5-7 seconds, and with one of two scenarios - one guy fairly close but
still beaten cruises to 2nd late in the race, inflating the margin; one
guy gets a bad start (usually Mladin) or starts off the back row (red
flag crash) and by the time he works through to 2nd the race is over.

I suspect some of this is the result of both riders being on essentially
the same bike and the same tires. If one guy has a slight edge in setup
or an edge in riding on a certain track, it becomes decisive. Spies won
the single races at Daytona and Laguna, doubled at Miller, won the wet
race at Elkhart, leading all but a few laps early on before Mladin's
crashes at Daytona and Miller, and other than that only won at Fontana
in the first race, where he had slightly more pace early on but couldn't
get past Mladin. On Sunday Mladin came back and managed to hold him off
all race, winning by the smallest margin of the season. Mladin, on the
other hand, has doubled at Barber, Sears, Mid-Ohio, VIR and Road
Atlanta, took that win at Fontana and the one at Elkhart after Spies
crashed on the warmup. So it's been rare that a change made overnight
between doubleheader races has made a material difference. The racing
has only been fairly even a few places, most notably Barber and
Mid-Ohio. Yet even with both races at Barber being decided by less than
a second, Spies never led a lap there.

Looking back at FX in 04-05, it looked like this:

- In 2004 Duhamel and Zemke led every lap except those led by Bostrom
in the two races he did, Daytona and Laguna. There was considerably more
swapping of laps led, although in 3 of 11 races Zemke never led a lap.
The races were closer as well, 5 of 11 decided by less than a second
(although one was between Duhamel and Bostrom) and 4 others by less than
5 seconds. Duhamel and Zemke finished 1-2 in 7 races, were broken up by
Bostrom in two, and Zemke had two DNFs. Duhamel won the championship by
87 points, so that wasn't so close. Zemke never led in points, the
closest he got was within five after PPIR in May.

- In 2005, when Zemke had moved to the factory team, there continued
to be more lead-swapping, but perhaps slightly less than in '04. Zemke
led all the way at PPIR; otherwise neither led all laps - although Zemke
never led at Elkhart, where both Attard and Barnes led, the only
non-Honda laps led all year (Roberts also led laps at Daytona). 3 of 9
races were decide by less than a second, and 3 more by less than 5. They
finished 1-2 except for Roberts between them at Daytona and Zemke
crashing out at Road Atlanta. The championship was close all year, and
came down to that final lap at Road Atlanta.

So what's the difference? Well, most of the FX races were run right
after the 100km SB race on Saturday, so not only was it a less important
race but the guys were probably kind of tired at that point, so may have
been conserving energy more than Mladin and Spies this year. That means
they rode around only to decide it on the last couple laps. As a shorter
race there is less race strategy to trouble with, they just go as hard
as they could, or were willing to. Less sophisticated, less powerful
bikes probably makes setup choices somewhat less critical, as is tire
management.

I don't think in a premier class head-to-head championship battle it's
all that odd to see a lack of close race battles. I don't think there
was much of that between Roberts and Spencer in '83, or Rainey and
Schwantz in '87 or in '93, etc. While Edwards and Bayliss ran close a
lot in '02, from a results standpoint it was two seasons - Bayliss
winning 14 of the first 17 races, then Edwards winning 9 straight. Not
sure how many times they swapped leads that year, but probably less than
a lot of people would guess - I know Bayliss hardly led a lap between
the end of race one at Laguna and the finale at Imola. I guess that's
the way it goes at the highest levels.
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