average speed cameras in UK

CrazyCam wrote:
> Boxer wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
>> "Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact
>> my cars are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a
>> private database already.
>
> ...and you'd have no problems letting the cops have access to that data?

Of course not, unless they alleged that it proves that he was somewhere,
in which case he'd just tell the police it wasn't him, and that the real
driver had returned to Bogotá, again.

Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

Theo Bekkers wrote:
> Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>> CrazyCam <crazycam RemoveThis @upturnet.com.au> wrote:
>>> Fair goes, Zebee. Speeding would be picked up by GPS,
>>> complete stop, no chance, nor crossing double lines.
>> Depends. Theoretically it can't tell where you are within a margin of
>> error, but will that stop them? They just have to mandate it as
>> accurate, wouldn't be the first time.
>
> Yup, legally define them as siantifik devices. Then they can't be wrong.

It'd never happen, because GPS ownership is widespread in the community,
and then people would be able to use them to defend themselves against
charges. They'd only use that power to label devices, such as speed
measuring devices used by the police, which noone else has, as being
infallible.

Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

Nev.. wrote:
> CrazyCam wrote:
>> Boxer wrote:

>>> I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
>>> "Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact
>>> my cars are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a
>>> private database already.
>
>> ...and you'd have no problems letting the cops have access to that
>> data?

> Of course not, unless they alleged that it proves that he was
> somewhere, in which case he'd just tell the police it wasn't him, and
> that the real driver had returned to Bogotá, again.

Ahh, but then they bring out the HD roadside photography. Nothing to hide
here, please move along.

Theo
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

>
> Fair goes, Zebee. Speeding would be picked up by GPS,
> complete stop, no chance, nor crossing double lines.


I was a passenger in a late model Honda van thingy while in Japan.
This cage had a built in gps that would inform you if you were swerving
outside your lane. It had an antenna on each rear passenger door.
There may be a day when a car is restricted from speeding depending on the
speed limit of the location.


 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

Nev.. wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>> Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>>> They just have to mandate it as
>>> accurate, wouldn't be the first time.
>>
>> Yup, legally define them as siantifik devices. Then they can't be
>> wrong.
>
> It'd never happen, because GPS ownership is widespread in the
> community, and then people would be able to use them to defend
> themselves against charges. They'd only use that power to label
> devices, such as speed measuring devices used by the police, which
> noone else has, as being infallible.

It'll never happen? They'll take some really cheap Chinese model and rebadge
it 'for police use only' and, hey presto, there's your infallible
instrument.

Unlikely, but I'm not putting money on it.

Theo
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

"CrazyCam" <crazycam.DeleteThis@upturnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:477d5641$0$4437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Boxer wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
>> "Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact my
>> cars are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a private
>> database already.
>
> ..and you'd have no problems letting the cops have access to that data?
>
> regards,
> CrazyCam

Sure why not, particularly if someone just stole the car (the device allows
the police to remotely disable the vehicle as well). I suppose taking it to
the extreme the cops could monitor all cars and e-mail a speeding ticket to
us whenever the GPS showed that the car had exceeded the speed limit.
However the police in my area are stretched to a point of total inaction so
I find it hard to believe that they would be interested in where I am going.



Boxer
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnfnq9an.kot.zebeej@gmail.com...
> In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:51:15 GMT
> Boxer <someone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrnfnpghs.k8e.zebeej@gmail.com...
>>> In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:18:42 GMT
>>> Boxer <someone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why would you care?
>>>>
>>>> What have you got to hide?
>>>
>>> Never been divorced, never went for another job while still in one,
>>> never had a bit on the side, never had a relative who was in trouble,
>>> never had a boss who was fiddling the books and paranoid about you...
>>>
>>> Never done something that was legal when you did it, but was made
>>> retrospectively illegal.
>>>
>>> Everyone has something to hide else we'd none of us wear clothes. Or
>>> use funny names on the net eh Boxer <someone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com>?
>>>
>>> And retrospective legislation is something governments would do more
>>> of if they reckon they could say "for the children!"
>>>
>>> Zebee
>>
>> What has any of that to do with number plate cameras?
>
> "What have you got to hide" is a silly question.
>
> Any information the government has on you is for sale. All it takes
> is one corrupt clerk, as Medicare knows full well. So if the
> government knows where you are, so does anyone who wants to know.
>
> Zebee

What have you really got to hide, if anyone wants to know where I am all
they have to do is call my mobile and I will tell them, paranoia seems to be
the flavour of the month on this forum.



Boxer
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

the big dog wrote:

> My main objection to these is on privacy grounds and on the basis of
> the presumption of innocence. a Radar speed camera only records the
> location of lawbreakers, assuming it functions correctly. The state
> is entirely justified in collecting information relating to an offense
> that is known to have taken place. Average speed cameras record the
> location of every motorist passing a given point, regardless of
> whether or not the motorists have committed an offense. I consider
> permitting the state to collect information on the basis that an
> offense _might_ take place to be profoundly dangerous and a violation
> of both privacy rights and the right to presumption of innocence.

Then you must also object to living in the UK in general then? CCTV
cameras are more common than a politician's lies over there, and have
been used to keep innocent people under surveillance for many years now.
Given the precedent established by their extensive and unchallenged use,
you haven't got a leg to stand on if you think you could oppose the
introduction of a road-based equivalent such the 'average speed cameras'
that have been proposed. The only real avenue for objecting to their use
is to either leave the UK if you live there, or never visit if you live
somewhere else - otherwise, get used to it.
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnfnqm0v.ueb.zebeej@gmail.com...
> In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:40:22 +1100
> CrazyCam <crazycam.TakeThisOut@upturnet.com.au> wrote:
>> Boxer wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
>>> "Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact my
>>> cars
>>> are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a private
>>> database
>>> already.
>>
>> ..and you'd have no problems letting the cops have access to that data?
>
> Presumably Boxer doesn't speed. Or fail to come to a complete stop
> at any stop sign. Or overtake on unbroken lines no matter the vision
> available.
>
> In a car. What about a bike?
>
> Zebee

Been done for speeding quite a few times, although over the last 10 years or
so not very often. Your vision of Big Brother seems to be clouding your
sense of reality here, do you really think the police are interested in
sitting in front of computers issuing speeding tickets all day, they really
have a lot more to do.



Boxer
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

In NSW the 'Safe-T-cam' system, which theoretically only monitors heavy
vehicles, has been capturing images of every other vehicle also for many
years now. It is used to ensure compliance in the trucking industry with
driving times, and could easily be used to monitor average speeds if it
is not already doing so. It works by capturing a digital image of every
vehicle that passes, retrieving the rego details from the image, and
comparing them to the RTA database - in theory it then discards anything
that isn't a heavy vehicle.

So that's one system in use in Australia that already could be used as
an 'average speed' camera if the authorities chose to do so. But there
are others. Anyone who has used the M7 in Sydney (that one in
particular, but probably every other toll road also) has been subject to
a similar level of surveillance. They take your picture when you enter
and they take your picture when you exit, so again the authorities could
easily tap into that data to get the details of your movements on those
roads, including your average speed.

Never mind the RTA traffic cameras that litter Sydney roads and others
such as the F3 etc.

Basically, people can object to it all they like, but it doesn't change
the fact that we're already under a far higher degree of constant daily
surveillance than many people realise, despite a complete lack of any
evidence of intent to commit any sort of crime or infringement at all.
The only way to avoid it is to find an isolated cave somewhere and take
up permanent residence. Otherwise, get used to it.
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

the big dog wrote:

> I don't. I challenge his right to put up a camera and connect it to
> OCR software to perform that function automatically.

So what do you say to the AFP in Canberra, who have a wonderful new
gadget (introduced a few years back now, so maybe not so new?) which
does just that? It's a hand-held device which lets them check instantly
the rego status of any vehicle they may spot, and it's been an
enormously useful and beneficial law-enforcement tool.

The NSW police have devices that perform a similar function, and which
are used by police in speed traps to observe and check vehicles that
pass them. Again, a very useful and beneficial law enforcement tool.

In neither case are innocent and law-abiding citizens inconvenienced or
deprived in any way whatsoever. But large numbers of unregistered and
stolen vehicles have been picked up that would otherwise have not been
noticed, and that's a good thing for all of us.

Like it or not, you're fighting a losing battle if you think you can
object to this on any legal grounds. Maybe you have a case ethically,
but legally you have no case at all, no matter how strongly you may feel
about the matter.
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:04:07 +1100
> CrazyCam <crazycam.RemoveThis@upturnet.com.au> wrote:
>> Fair goes, Zebee. Speeding would be picked up by GPS,
>> complete stop, no chance, nor crossing double lines.
>
> Depends. Theoretically it can't tell where you are within a margin of
> error, but will that stop them? They just have to mandate it as
> accurate, wouldn't be the first time.
>
> Zebee

No they couldn't, actually, at least not with GPS. It's only accurate to
within about 3 metres, but even if it was accurate to 1 metre, it is
still useless for determining something like whether someone crossed
double lines. For example, you could be driving down a dead straight
section of road and maintaining a precise and constant position within
your lane, and the GPS could still give a position that puts you halfway
across the road or even suggest you were weaving all over the place.
These issues are far too well documented for the government, or anyone
else, to ever even consider mandating it as accurate - not even they are
that stupid. To believe otherwise is to give far more credence to
paranoia than a healthy person should be doing.
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK 

Boxer wrote:

> What have you really got to hide, if anyone wants to know where I am all
> they have to do is call my mobile and I will tell them, paranoia seems to be
> the flavour of the month on this forum.

It certainly does! I've got a good supply of tin-foil hats, going cheap.
 >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK