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External
Since: Dec 07, 2007
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:55 am
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: aus>motorcycles (more info?)
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On Jan 3, 8:38 pm, BT Humble <bt_hum....TakeThisOut@bigpond.com> wrote:
> big dog wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 8:07 am, BT Humble <bt_hum....TakeThisOut@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > > Heavy vehicle drivers have had this system foisted upon them for years
> > > ("Safe-T-Cam"). This is just the rest of the population catching up.
>
> > > Would you prefer compulsory tachographs and 100km/h speed limiters?
>
> > > BTH
>
> > Because letting the government encroach even further on our rights is
> > going to make that day came _later_, right?
>
> Could you possibly rephrase that? I can't tell which side of that
> point you're arguing.
>
> BTH
The more we permit the government to encroach upon our rights, the
sooner the compulsory tachographs and speed limiters appear in
passenger vehicles. That it is done already to one group does not
make it acceptable either for the group already affected or for the
currently unaffected groups.
Look, I'm perfectly happy for roads to be blanketed with cameras: just
so long as the information is not indexed by registration number (i.e.
you cannot ask a computer "where was vehicle xxx-111 at 10:20 on
25/12/2007").
I'm also happy for speed cameras to operate as they do in NSW and VIC*
If law enforcement needs to determine why an accident occurred, i.e.
who is at fault, registration number indexing is not required. The
privacy implications of registration number indexing outweigh any law
enforcement benefit that it might have.
* the day I see an announcement that says "OPERATION SIDESWIPE: Police
are concentrating on [unsafe lane changes] in this area" or "OPERATION
Tailgate: Police are concentrating on [unsafe following distance] in
this area" is the day I will take seriously the proposition that speed
cameras are more about safety than about revenue collection. |
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External
Since: Aug 30, 2003
Posts: 2341
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:49 am
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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the big dog wrote:
>> They only send fines to lawbreakers, but with
>> digital technologies used in most fixed speed cameras it doesn't cost
>> the operators any more to record the details of all vehicles passing the
>> camera, speeding or not.
>
> AFAIK the legislation authorizing speed cameras did not authorize the
> government to collect this information.
What legislation? Which jurisdiction are you talking about..or are you
just making generalized assumptions based on your opinions and
converting them into law? Just because something isn't explicitly
described doesn't mean it can't ever be done. I'll bet there is nothing
in the legislation authorising the police to conduct Random Breath
Testing in Victoria which explicitly states that the police conducting
random breath testing at booze buses are allowed to record the
registration of every vehicle which is stopped for a breath test, but
look around next time you see one and there will be a cop with a
clipboard standing there noting them all. I dare you to challenge his
right to write down what is in plain view for all to see.
Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX |
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External
Since: May 01, 2006
Posts: 494
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:49 am
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"the big dog" <thebygdog.RemoveThis@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:3625c9b6-2327-4512-a511-63eeaf4dd641@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 6:33 pm, "Nev.." <id....RemoveThis@mindless.com> wrote:
>> the big dog wrote:
>> >> They only send fines to lawbreakers, but with
>> >> digital technologies used in most fixed speed cameras it doesn't cost
>> >> the operators any more to record the details of all vehicles passing
>> >> the
>> >> camera, speeding or not.
>>
>> > AFAIK the legislation authorizing speed cameras did not authorize the
>> > government to collect this information.
>>
>> What legislation? Which jurisdiction are you talking about..or are you
>> just making generalized assumptions based on your opinions and
>> converting them into law? Just because something isn't explicitly
>> described doesn't mean it can't ever be done. I'll bet there is nothing
>> in the legislation authorising the police to conduct Random Breath
>> Testing in Victoria which explicitly states that the police conducting
>> random breath testing at booze buses are allowed to record the
>> registration of every vehicle which is stopped for a breath test, but
>> look around next time you see one and there will be a cop with a
>> clipboard standing there noting them all. I dare you to challenge his
>> right to write down what is in plain view for all to see.
>>
>> Nev..
>> '04 CBR1100XX
>
> I don't. I challenge his right to put up a camera and connect it to
> OCR software to perform that function automatically.
Why would you care?
What have you got to hide?
Boxer >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: Dec 07, 2007
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:06 am
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 3, 10:52 pm, "Nev.." <id....DeleteThis@mindless.com> wrote:
> the big dog wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 8:07 am, BT Humble <bt_hum....DeleteThis@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> the big dog wrote:
> >>> On Jan 2, 9:05 pm, pooter <charles.poo....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> story in the UK telegraph, "average speed cameras on way"
> >>>> they appear to be several cameras that take photos of cars
> >>>> at beginning and end of stretchs of roads and a computer works
> >>>> out your average speed. If its higher than speed limit you get a ticket 
> >>>> Pooter.
> >>> My main objection to these is on privacy grounds and on the basis of
> >>> the presumption of innocence. a Radar speed camera only records the
> >>> location of lawbreakers, assuming it functions correctly. The state
> >>> is entirely justified in collecting information relating to an offense
> >>> that is known to have taken place. Average speed cameras record the
> >>> location of every motorist passing a given point, regardless of
> >>> whether or not the motorists have committed an offense. I consider
> >>> permitting the state to collect information on the basis that an
> >>> offense _might_ take place to be profoundly dangerous and a violation
> >>> of both privacy rights and the right to presumption of innocence.
> >> Heavy vehicle drivers have had this system foisted upon them for years
> >> ("Safe-T-Cam"). This is just the rest of the population catching up.
>
> >> Would you prefer compulsory tachographs and 100km/h speed limiters?
>
> >> BTH
>
> > Because letting the government encroach even further on our rights is
> > going to make that day came _later_, right?
>
> All the government have to say is "the use of this technology is
> required to monitor the movements of known paedophiles" and then anyone
> who opposes it is 'sympathetic to paedophiles' and their opinion is
> instantly discredited. Simple... and then who wants to be the first to
> stand up and say their privacy is more important than protecting
> children from paedophiles?
>
> Nev..
> '04 CBR1100XX
Known paedophiles can have GPS units surgically implanted someplace
difficult to remove without also removing ones genitals for all I
care.
Not saying Australian politicians aren't corrupt enough to do exactly
what you describe though. >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: Dec 26, 2005
Posts: 889
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:08 am
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:18:42 GMT
Boxer <someone.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> Why would you care?
>
> What have you got to hide?
Never been divorced, never went for another job while still in one,
never had a bit on the side, never had a relative who was in trouble,
never had a boss who was fiddling the books and paranoid about you...
Never done something that was legal when you did it, but was made
retrospectively illegal.
Everyone has something to hide else we'd none of us wear clothes. Or
use funny names on the net eh Boxer <someone.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com>?
And retrospective legislation is something governments would do more
of if they reckon they could say "for the children!"
Zebee >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: May 01, 2006
Posts: 494
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:58 am
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnfnpghs.k8e.zebeej@gmail.com...
> In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:18:42 GMT
> Boxer <someone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why would you care?
>>
>> What have you got to hide?
>
> Never been divorced, never went for another job while still in one,
> never had a bit on the side, never had a relative who was in trouble,
> never had a boss who was fiddling the books and paranoid about you...
>
> Never done something that was legal when you did it, but was made
> retrospectively illegal.
>
> Everyone has something to hide else we'd none of us wear clothes. Or
> use funny names on the net eh Boxer <someone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com>?
>
> And retrospective legislation is something governments would do more
> of if they reckon they could say "for the children!"
>
> Zebee
What has any of that to do with number plate cameras?
Boxer >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: Aug 30, 2003
Posts: 2341
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:58 am
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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the big dog wrote:
> On Jan 3, 8:07 am, BT Humble <bt_hum....DeleteThis@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> the big dog wrote:
>>> On Jan 2, 9:05 pm, pooter <charles.poo....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> story in the UK telegraph, "average speed cameras on way"
>>>> they appear to be several cameras that take photos of cars
>>>> at beginning and end of stretchs of roads and a computer works
>>>> out your average speed. If its higher than speed limit you get a ticket
>>>> Pooter.
>>> My main objection to these is on privacy grounds and on the basis of
>>> the presumption of innocence. a Radar speed camera only records the
>>> location of lawbreakers, assuming it functions correctly. The state
>>> is entirely justified in collecting information relating to an offense
>>> that is known to have taken place. Average speed cameras record the
>>> location of every motorist passing a given point, regardless of
>>> whether or not the motorists have committed an offense. I consider
>>> permitting the state to collect information on the basis that an
>>> offense _might_ take place to be profoundly dangerous and a violation
>>> of both privacy rights and the right to presumption of innocence.
>> Heavy vehicle drivers have had this system foisted upon them for years
>> ("Safe-T-Cam"). This is just the rest of the population catching up.
>>
>> Would you prefer compulsory tachographs and 100km/h speed limiters?
>>
>> BTH
>
> Because letting the government encroach even further on our rights is
> going to make that day came _later_, right?
All the government have to say is "the use of this technology is
required to monitor the movements of known paedophiles" and then anyone
who opposes it is 'sympathetic to paedophiles' and their opinion is
instantly discredited. Simple... and then who wants to be the first to
stand up and say their privacy is more important than protecting
children from paedophiles?
Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: May 01, 2006
Posts: 494
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:58 am
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Nev.." <idiot.TakeThisOut@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:477ccc77$0$25497$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> All the government have to say is "the use of this technology is required
> to monitor the movements of known paedophiles" and then anyone who opposes
> it is 'sympathetic to paedophiles' and their opinion is instantly
> discredited. Simple... and then who wants to be the first to stand up and
> say their privacy is more important than protecting children from
> paedophiles?
>
> Nev..
> '04 CBR1100XX
If cameras are to be on the roadside why not enable them to be used to
assist in the recovery of stolen vehicles, aid in the apprehension of "Bank
Robbers" etc, recover abducted children, identify unregistered vehicles,
identify vehicles belonging to drivers on court imposed restrictions and
unlicensed drivers. A large number of road fatalities are caused by this
class of vehicle and driver.
I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
"Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact my cars
are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a private database
already.
Whilst the paranoid may cite the absurd notion of a breach of privacy, it is
far more likely that the technology will be used to introduce a form of
congestion tolling in the future. Privacy is not my concern increased
taxation is a far more likely consequence than the government being
interested how many times you visit McDonalds, or take your secretary to the
local Motel at lunchtime.
Boxer >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: Dec 26, 2005
Posts: 889
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:44 pm
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:51:15 GMT
Boxer <someone.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> "Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnfnpghs.k8e.zebeej@gmail.com...
>> In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:18:42 GMT
>> Boxer <someone.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Why would you care?
>>>
>>> What have you got to hide?
>>
>> Never been divorced, never went for another job while still in one,
>> never had a bit on the side, never had a relative who was in trouble,
>> never had a boss who was fiddling the books and paranoid about you...
>>
>> Never done something that was legal when you did it, but was made
>> retrospectively illegal.
>>
>> Everyone has something to hide else we'd none of us wear clothes. Or
>> use funny names on the net eh Boxer <someone.RemoveThis@nowhere.com>?
>>
>> And retrospective legislation is something governments would do more
>> of if they reckon they could say "for the children!"
>>
>> Zebee
>
> What has any of that to do with number plate cameras?
"What have you got to hide" is a silly question.
Any information the government has on you is for sale. All it takes
is one corrupt clerk, as Medicare knows full well. So if the
government knows where you are, so does anyone who wants to know.
Zebee >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: Nov 23, 2004
Posts: 261
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:58 pm
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jan 4, 8:48 am, Zebee Johnstone <zeb....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:40:22 +1100
>
> CrazyCam <crazy....DeleteThis@upturnet.com.au> wrote:
> > Boxer wrote:
>
> ><snip>
>
> >> I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
> >> "Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact my cars
> >> are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a private database
> >> already.
>
> > ..and you'd have no problems letting the cops have access to that data?
>
> Presumably Boxer doesn't speed. Or fail to come to a complete stop
> at any stop sign. Or overtake on unbroken lines no matter the vision
> available.
>
> In a car. What about a bike?
>
> Zebee
Most of the "Ooh, what have you got to hide?" sheeple are the same
simple to manipulate citizens who blithely sit back and smile, safe in
their "knowledge" that the great and good Government would never make
a decision that wasn't in the people's best interest. I've got a
bridge I'd like to sell that crowd. >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: Mar 21, 2007
Posts: 570
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Boxer wrote:
<snip>
> I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
> "Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact my cars
> are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a private database
> already.
...and you'd have no problems letting the cops have access to that data?
regards,
CrazyCam >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: Jan 21, 2007
Posts: 57
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(Msg. 27) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Dec 26, 2005
Posts: 889
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(Msg. 28) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:40:22 +1100
CrazyCam <crazycam.DeleteThis@upturnet.com.au> wrote:
> Boxer wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
>> "Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact my cars
>> are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a private database
>> already.
>
> ..and you'd have no problems letting the cops have access to that data?
Presumably Boxer doesn't speed. Or fail to come to a complete stop
at any stop sign. Or overtake on unbroken lines no matter the vision
available.
In a car. What about a bike?
Zebee >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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External
Since: Mar 21, 2007
Posts: 570
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(Msg. 29) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:40:22 +1100
> CrazyCam <crazycam RemoveThis @upturnet.com.au> wrote:
>> Boxer wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I really do not have anything to hide that would be revealed by the
>>> "Government" knowing where my vehicle was at any given time, in fact my cars
>>> are fitted with GPS tracking that is recorded and held on a private database
>>> already.
>> ..and you'd have no problems letting the cops have access to that data?
>
> Presumably Boxer doesn't speed. Or fail to come to a complete stop
> at any stop sign. Or overtake on unbroken lines no matter the vision
> available.
>
> In a car. What about a bike?
Fair goes, Zebee. Speeding would be picked up by GPS,
complete stop, no chance, nor crossing double lines.
regards,
CrazyCam >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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Since: Dec 26, 2005
Posts: 889
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(Msg. 30) Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: average speed cameras in UK [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:04:07 +1100
CrazyCam <crazycam DeleteThis @upturnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> Fair goes, Zebee. Speeding would be picked up by GPS,
> complete stop, no chance, nor crossing double lines.
Depends. Theoretically it can't tell where you are within a margin of
error, but will that stop them? They just have to mandate it as
accurate, wouldn't be the first time.
Zebee >> Stay informed about: average speed cameras in UK |
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