Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars?

Marc Westerlind <mwesterl RemoveThis @emc.com> wrote in message news:<4055F651.9879103D RemoveThis @emc.com>...
 > After three months of winter I'm finally getting off my rear
 > to get the RM ready for another season of novice scrambing and
 > woods riding.
 >
 > I'm looking to make the bike more comfortable while standing
 > and attacking. I'm about 6' tall, riding a '00 RM250.
 >
 > I'm currently running some YZ-bend Renthals, cut down to 30.5"
 > with bark-busters. I normally like to run the bars rotated
 > forward a good amount. No matter where I rotate them, I am
 > not perfectly comfortable while standing. (Seated and railing
 > corners, the bars feel great.)
 >
 > I'm under the assumption I need some taller bars. I've had
 > good luck with TAG T2's on another off-road vehicle, so I'm
 > looking to pick up a set for this bike.
 >
 > Am I on the right track with some taller bars? Anyone running
 > hi's or double-hi's for this type duty? I don't know whether
 > to spring for a triple clamp that allows multiple mounting options.
 >
 > I don't feel as though the bars are too close to me, but I 'do'
 > have a tendency to sit right at the rear edge of the seat.
 >
 >
 > Thanks,
 > -marc

I've got a 1998 KTM 300 MXC. I run KX 80 mini bars. They are tall
enough that I can run my Scott's withoug having to bend the cross bar.
They have to be rotated way forward to make them work, but that really
open up access to the Scott's controls. They are naturally narrow
without sacrificing control space. It works fine for me. The instand I
went taller I became a stand up rider.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars? 

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:30:41 -0500, Marc Westerlind <mwesterl.DeleteThis@emc.com>
wrote:

 >After three months of winter I'm finally getting off my rear
 >to get the RM ready for another season of novice scrambing and
 >woods riding.
 >
 >I'm looking to make the bike more comfortable while standing
 >and attacking. I'm about 6' tall, riding a '00 RM250.
 >
 >I'm currently running some YZ-bend Renthals, cut down to 30.5"
 >with bark-busters. I normally like to run the bars rotated
 >forward a good amount. No matter where I rotate them, I am
 >not perfectly comfortable while standing. (Seated and railing
 >corners, the bars feel great.)

It makes sense that cut down bars will be uncomfortable. Put your arms out
in the riding position YOU want and go find that. Note that while your
arms are out there that any sweep at all works against you as you cut them
down. I'm almost 6-2. My setup is:

2" more seat foam
bar risers: 1.5" up, 1" forward - from Thumper
Renthal Jimmy Buttons... a tall bar.

Perfect fit as is (slightly cutdown) but if I cut them back a lot, it'd
cease to work.

One observation with a tall setup: Make sure you're standing a lot... keep
your forearms below your heart. If you set a great deal, you're pumping
blood uphill. You burn out faster and pump up faster.

Good luck,
Mike


 >
 >I'm under the assumption I need some taller bars. I've had
 >good luck with TAG T2's on another off-road vehicle, so I'm
 >looking to pick up a set for this bike.
 >
 >Am I on the right track with some taller bars? Anyone running
 >hi's or double-hi's for this type duty? I don't know whether
 >to spring for a triple clamp that allows multiple mounting options.
 >
 >I don't feel as though the bars are too close to me, but I 'do'
 >have a tendency to sit right at the rear edge of the seat.
 >
 >
 >Thanks,
 >-marc

--
Mike W.
96 XR400
74 CZ250 Enduro
99 KZ1000P
BRC, AMA, NETRA, NOHVCC, NRA

"Why do they call it Cobra Grass?"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars? 

 > Perfect fit as is (slightly cutdown) but if I cut them back a lot, it'd
 > cease to work.
 >
 > One observation with a tall setup: Make sure you're standing a lot... keep
 > your forearms below your heart. If you set a great deal, you're pumping
 > blood uphill. You burn out faster and pump up faster.
 >
 > Good luck,
 > Mike


It seems to me...

That forearms up or down or level with heart should not make all that
much difference. Here's my reasons. 1 - the arms attach at the
shoulders which are above the heart anyway... if being level with
anything would matter... should be the shoulders... not the heart 2 -
if the arms are down, you don't have to pump the blood down... but you
have to pump it back up. 3 - If the arms are up, you have to pump it
up, but not back down. I don't see a lot of difference between 2 and
3... one direction is free one is not. Seems to me that the most
advantageous position is level with the shoulders.

Comments?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars? 

On 18 Mar 2004 11:25:19 -0800, Dudley.Cornman DeleteThis @eku.edu (dsc) wrote:

 >
 >It seems to me...
 >
 >That forearms up or down or level with heart should not make all that
 >much difference. Here's my reasons. 1 - the arms attach at the
 >shoulders which are above the heart anyway... if being level with
 >anything would matter... should be the shoulders... not the heart 2 -
 >if the arms are down, you don't have to pump the blood down... but you
 >have to pump it back up. 3 - If the arms are up, you have to pump it
 >up, but not back down. I don't see a lot of difference between 2 and
 >3... one direction is free one is not. Seems to me that the most
 >advantageous position is level with the shoulders.
 >
 >Comments?

Hey Dudley.. LTNS... So there's two answer-philosophies... analytical and
experimental. Analytically, I don't have any issues with your thinking on
this.... although... (crap... I think I do this a lot.. sorry:)... Maybe
another analytical view might be:

In all cases, your heart has to pump against a lift up to shoulder-height.
And additionally..

If your arms are up:
  - You have to pump harder to get it to the top of the structure,
  - Free ride back down. Pressure up, gravity down.

If your arms are down:

  - Minimal pressure requirement to put blood into the arm..
   You're sorta spilling it in (up to the shoulder and
   then gravity assist the rest of the way in)
  - The blood going in creates a pressure head that lifts the
   outgoing blood out, more or less. Probably lots
   of friction losses (at least in my "body".

But experimentally, I noticed riding with Brian in WI that when I was
sitting, I was pumping up like hell. Our first day was all quicksand and I
just don't like to stand in that. Then we hit the *good* stuff the second
day... perfect TST... I stood most of the time out of pure rapture. No
pump-up.

Ideally, I bet standing with the occasional sit mixed in is the best. Just
my two cents.

Take care!

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
74 CZ250 Enduro
99 KZ1000P
BRC, AMA, NETRA, NOHVCC, NRA

"Why do they call it Cobra Grass?"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars? 

On this topic I once read "Would you rather lean on a pipe for a
while, or hang from one?"
I run low bars in the woods. Getting them moved forward is another
issue.
Greg

Marc Westerlind <mwesterl.DeleteThis@emc.com> wrote in message news:<4055F651.9879103D.DeleteThis@emc.com>...
 > After three months of winter I'm finally getting off my rear
 > to get the RM ready for another season of novice scrambing and
 > woods riding.
 >
 > I'm looking to make the bike more comfortable while standing
 > and attacking. I'm about 6' tall, riding a '00 RM250.
 >
 > I'm currently running some YZ-bend Renthals, cut down to 30.5"
 > with bark-busters. I normally like to run the bars rotated
 > forward a good amount. No matter where I rotate them, I am
 > not perfectly comfortable while standing. (Seated and railing
 > corners, the bars feel great.)
 >
 > I'm under the assumption I need some taller bars. I've had
 > good luck with TAG T2's on another off-road vehicle, so I'm
 > looking to pick up a set for this bike.
 >
 > Am I on the right track with some taller bars? Anyone running
 > hi's or double-hi's for this type duty? I don't know whether
 > to spring for a triple clamp that allows multiple mounting options.
 >
 > I don't feel as though the bars are too close to me, but I 'do'
 > have a tendency to sit right at the rear edge of the seat.
 >
 >
 > Thanks,
 > -marc<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars? 

Mike W. <outofthe.RemoveThis@emailbiz.com> wrote in message news:<9jdk50p87j057l68tp8o2afl37f5rsk6uc.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
 > On 18 Mar 2004 11:25:19 -0800, Dudley.Cornman.RemoveThis@eku.edu (dsc) wrote:
 >
  > >
  > >It seems to me...
  > >
  > >That forearms up or down or level with heart should not make all that
  > >much difference. Here's my reasons. 1 - the arms attach at the
  > >shoulders which are above the heart anyway... if being level with
  > >anything would matter... should be the shoulders... not the heart 2 -
  > >if the arms are down, you don't have to pump the blood down... but you
  > >have to pump it back up. 3 - If the arms are up, you have to pump it
  > >up, but not back down. I don't see a lot of difference between 2 and
  > >3... one direction is free one is not. Seems to me that the most
  > >advantageous position is level with the shoulders.
  > >
  > >Comments?
 >
 > Hey Dudley.. LTNS... So there's two answer-philosophies... analytical and
 > experimental. Analytically, I don't have any issues with your thinking on
 > this.... although... (crap... I think I do this a lot.. sorry:)... Maybe
 > another analytical view might be:
 >
 > In all cases, your heart has to pump against a lift up to shoulder-height.
 > And additionally..
 >
 > If your arms are up:
  > - You have to pump harder to get it to the top of the structure,
  > - Free ride back down. Pressure up, gravity down.
 >
 > If your arms are down:
 >
  > - Minimal pressure requirement to put blood into the arm..
   > You're sorta spilling it in (up to the shoulder and
   > then gravity assist the rest of the way in)
  > - The blood going in creates a pressure head that lifts the
   > outgoing blood out, more or less. Probably lots
   > of friction losses (at least in my "body".
 >
 > But experimentally, I noticed riding with Brian in WI that when I was
 > sitting, I was pumping up like hell. Our first day was all quicksand and I
 > just don't like to stand in that. Then we hit the *good* stuff the second
 > day... perfect TST... I stood most of the time out of pure rapture. No
 > pump-up.
 >
 > Ideally, I bet standing with the occasional sit mixed in is the best. Just
 > my two cents.

Sand... maybe you were just riding too tense???<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars? 

Hi Mike,
I bet that the arm pump issue is more one of not being comfortable
and secure in the sand, and gripping the grips harder.

Jim

 >On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:03:34 -0500, Mike W. <outofthe RemoveThis @emailbiz.com> wrote:

 >On 18 Mar 2004 11:25:19 -0800, Dudley.Cornman RemoveThis @eku.edu (dsc) wrote:
 >
  >>
  >>It seems to me...
  >>
  >>That forearms up or down or level with heart should not make all that
  >>much difference. Here's my reasons. 1 - the arms attach at the
  >>shoulders which are above the heart anyway... if being level with
  >>anything would matter... should be the shoulders... not the heart 2 -
  >>if the arms are down, you don't have to pump the blood down... but you
  >>have to pump it back up. 3 - If the arms are up, you have to pump it
  >>up, but not back down. I don't see a lot of difference between 2 and
  >>3... one direction is free one is not. Seems to me that the most
  >>advantageous position is level with the shoulders.
  >>
  >>Comments?
 >
 >Hey Dudley.. LTNS... So there's two answer-philosophies... analytical and
 >experimental. Analytically, I don't have any issues with your thinking on
 >this.... although... (crap... I think I do this a lot.. sorry:)... Maybe
 >another analytical view might be:
 >
 >In all cases, your heart has to pump against a lift up to shoulder-height.
 >And additionally..
 >
 >If your arms are up:
  > - You have to pump harder to get it to the top of the structure,
  > - Free ride back down. Pressure up, gravity down.
 >
 >If your arms are down:
 >
  > - Minimal pressure requirement to put blood into the arm..
   > You're sorta spilling it in (up to the shoulder and
   > then gravity assist the rest of the way in)
  > - The blood going in creates a pressure head that lifts the
   > outgoing blood out, more or less. Probably lots
   > of friction losses (at least in my "body".
 >
 >But experimentally, I noticed riding with Brian in WI that when I was
 >sitting, I was pumping up like hell. Our first day was all quicksand and I
 >just don't like to stand in that. Then we hit the *good* stuff the second
 >day... perfect TST... I stood most of the time out of pure rapture. No
 >pump-up.
 >
 >Ideally, I bet standing with the occasional sit mixed in is the best. Just
 >my two cents.
 >
 >Take care!
 >
 >Mike

You too, Mike.



Jim
(On Deb's Computer)

"99 Gas Gas EC274 (Sweet Baby)

Team LAGNAF
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.smackovermotorsports.com" target="_blank">www.smackovermotorsports.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars? 

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:53:17 GMT, The Cooks
<dirtbike52RemovE.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 >Hi Mike,
 > I bet that the arm pump issue is more one of not being comfortable
 >and secure in the sand, and gripping the grips harder.
 >
 >Jim

Well, I definitely wasn't having any fun... I mean... Hell.. I was with
Brian!

I think you and Dudley are correct in that I was riding tensely in that
stuff. I have seen the effect come into play since though in my own riding
areas here (such that there are any left). Maybe it's just me, but don't
forget... I've got a way tall setup.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
74 CZ250 Enduro
99 KZ1000P
BRC, AMA, NETRA, NOHVCC, NRA

"Why do they call it Cobra Grass?"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Woods riding, hi/double-hi bars?