Schuey 5 seconds off the pace

Sturd's desperation begins to show:
> Mark N quotes:
>
>> Specifically what Kev said: "He's a little on the tall, lanky side, but
>> from a weight perspective he's okay"
>
> And from this concludes:
>
>> I guess it shows, even though no one talks about it much, these
>> guys are quite conscious of the size limitation that exists in GP today.
>
> Can't argue with logic like that.

Okay, here's specifically how it went:

Q: What do you think the future would hold for Ben Spies if he was to
come to the world championships soon?

KS: Well, you know, just following him around, watching a little bit of
what the guys are doing these days, I think Ben's style will suite a
MotoGP bike real well. He's a little on the tall, lanky side, but I
think from a weight perspective he's okay. A little bit of change to
riding style to suite a MotoGP bike, but he's young enough, he's not set
in his ways that strongly. I think he could do a great job if he gets on
a MotoGP bike.

Now to you maybe Kevin means to say, "Size is no issue in MotoGP,
smaller riders have no advantage in this series", but to me what Kevin
is clearly acknowledging are the two big changes in MotoGP in the last
two or three years, the trend toward machines requiring more of a
125/250 riding style and the ever-shrinking riders in the series. That
he would answer that question by almost immediately addressing Ben's
size - which is only 5-11 and 160 pounds after all, hardly huge in the
larger picture of top racing, the same height as Rossi and the same
weight as what you used to call optimal - says an awful lot about what
people are conscious of in and around the series. What he seems to be
trying to say is, "You don't have to be a 125-pound midget from 125 and
250 to race competitively in MotoGP, despite what it looks like today".

So why do you think Kev would have talked about Ben's size if he didn't
think it mattered, if he thought it was no issue at all?
 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

Alexey Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:09:39
>Personally, I can't wait
>until this stuff trickles down and I'm able to adjust my own traction
>control with a laptop at the track on a stock or nearly stock bike the
>same way one can do so with fuel maps now.

Next year's 1098R? The WSB rules mean they've got to produce a lot of
them. And the BSB rules mean they can't change much. The reports from
Milan are saying they've got a full traction control system but with
most of it turned off for the road.

Homologation all gets a bit bizarre at this point. 1000 bikes (or
whatever it is) get built. You can play like John Hackett and buy one,
rip all the bits off and build a race bike. Or you can buy a ready
converted race bike from the factory if your name's Airwaves or
Sterilgarda. With the factory converted bikes it must have been possible
to produce a replica from a showroom bike, but in fact they've been hand
built specifically for racing so they're not really converted as they
never existed in any other form.

It was always like this for the other factories and now Ducati can't
tweak the game with a very short run of specials. Which brings us back
to the 1098R. $40K (£20K) isn't cheap but it's not insane. And it looks
like it's going to be a hell of a tool. (nearly said it's going to be a
Monster!)

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 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

"Julian Bond" wrote in message
news:sYX+O4V98ANHFA6Y@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
> Alexey Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:09:39
>>Personally, I can't wait
>>until this stuff trickles down and I'm able to adjust my own traction
>>control with a laptop at the track on a stock or nearly stock bike the
>>same way one can do so with fuel maps now.
>
> Next year's 1098R? ...

Call me bloring, but I'd rather have a bike that packs a manageable and
torquey 90 horses into a package that is less than 400lbs. And hey, I am
over 6ft and weigh over 200lbs, and still it is the type of bike I enjoy the
most. Perhaps because it doesn't require traction control. ABS is about the
only trickery I like on a street bike, but it's not an absolute must.

I just find the trend towards an engineering extreme that is so unstable
that it needs to be electronically contained a tad illogical when the
alternative is so simple... and enjoyable. And easier to maintain for the
long term, I'd bet. I wonder how many vehicles with elaborate electronics
will be driveable-rideable collectibles in 50 years (yeah, I firmly intend
to still ride

....pablo
 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

pablo Fri, 9 Nov 2007 00:09:29
>Call me bloring, but I'd rather have a bike that packs a manageable and
>torquey 90 horses into a package that is less than 400lbs.

Luddite! If we don't keep persuading people to buy the
latest/fastest/lightest/betterest how are we going to afford to go
racing?

I do agree with you. I'm currently hankering after a K4/K5 GSXR750
because in the K6 they turned it into a Manga toy. I know it's not 90hp,
but 90hp is easily accessible with the other 40 available if you ever
need them. The other bike that turns me on is the Triumph Speed Triple.
The only problem is I want the R model that they haven't made yet.

And frankly some of my most enjoyable rides have been thrashing a 35hp
single down back roads. Or the old TDR250. Or riding something
completely daft like a Burger 400 rather faster than it was designed
for.

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 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

"pablo" wrote in message

>
> "Julian Bond" wrote in message
> news:sYX+O4V98ANHFA6Y@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
> > Alexey Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:09:39
> >>Personally, I can't wait
> >>until this stuff trickles down and I'm able to adjust my own traction
> >>control with a laptop at the track on a stock or nearly stock bike the
> >>same way one can do so with fuel maps now.
> >
> > Next year's 1098R? ...
>
> Call me bloring, but I'd rather have a bike that packs a manageable and
> torquey 90 horses into a package that is less than 400lbs. And hey, I am
> over 6ft and weigh over 200lbs, and still it is the type of bike I enjoy the
> most. Perhaps because it doesn't require traction control. ABS is about the
> only trickery I like on a street bike, but it's not an absolute must.

Pablo, if you want 90hp keep it under 8K or what-ever although it's (traction control) another
complexity that may eventuality cause additional reliabilty problems...

BTW the 1098R is listed on the Ducati web site as a 1198cc, bore/stroke:104 x 64.7 mm (1098) vs
106x67.9mm(1098R)....180hp vs 160hp, I have a 1098 and even though the web site and all of the mags
list the hp as160 at the crank, in the owners manual it's 154hp! Oh what a disapointment...








> I just find the trend towards an engineering extreme that is so unstable
> that it needs to be electronically contained a tad illogical when the
> alternative is so simple... and enjoyable. And easier to maintain for the
> long term, I'd bet. I wonder how many vehicles with elaborate electronics
> will be driveable-rideable collectibles in 50 years (yeah, I firmly intend
> to still ride
>
> ...pablo
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

On Nov 9, 3:09 am, "pablo" wrote:
> "Julian Bond" wrote in message
>
> news:sYX+O4V98ANHFA6Y@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
>
> > Alexey Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:09:39
> >>Personally, I can't wait
> >>until this stuff trickles down and I'm able to adjust my own traction
> >>control with a laptop at the track on a stock or nearly stock bike the
> >>same way one can do so with fuel maps now.
>
> > Next year's 1098R? ...
>
> Call me bloring, but I'd rather have a bike that packs a manageable and
> torquey 90 horses into a package that is less than 400lbs. And hey, I am
> over 6ft and weigh over 200lbs, and still it is the type of bike I enjoy the
> most. Perhaps because it doesn't require traction control. ABS is about the
> only trickery I like on a street bike, but it's not an absolute must.
>
> I just find the trend towards an engineering extreme that is so unstable
> that it needs to be electronically contained a tad illogical when the
> alternative is so simple... and enjoyable. And easier to maintain for the
> long term, I'd bet. I wonder how many vehicles with elaborate electronics
> will be driveable-rideable collectibles in 50 years (yeah, I firmly intend
> to still ride
>
> ...pablo

Well, for racing, I think it would be a lot of fun. But actually, I
bet with better/cheaper electronics production methods and some better
software standards out-there, keeping something running that uses a
lot of engine management stuff won't be any harder than a 60's relic
with points and finicky carbs (I happen to have such a relic, so I can
talk trash ). Maybe it's just the software guy in me talking, but
I think it would be totally cool to be able to buy a 20 year old bike,
download engine management software for it from some site, flash a
more or less generic ECU with it, drop it in the bike, and away you
go.

Consider for example what could be done with this setup. Already, it
should be possible to a large extend to retrofit traction control on
top of ECU boxes. Then, if someone's really clever, they could use
already existing algorithms that allow a system to figure out the
configuration of a lap on the fly based on consistency of inputs from
the rider and maybe some other metrics and use that to achieve
something like what Magno Mirelli setup does for Ducati -- allow you
to fine tune traction management per corner on a closed circuit. How
freaking cool would that be? Go out for the first session, come back,
the computer knows what the lap looks like. Plug in your laptop and
allow it to give you more slip out of turn X. Go back out and try it
out. I think it'd be fun.
 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

On Nov 9, 8:46 pm, Alexey wrote:

> Consider for example what could be done with this setup. Already, it
> should be possible to a large extend to retrofit traction control on
> top of ECU boxes. Then, if someone's really clever, they could use
> already existing algorithms that allow a system to figure out the
> configuration of a lap on the fly based on consistency of inputs from
> the rider and maybe some other metrics and use that to achieve
> something like what Magno Mirelli setup does for Ducati -- allow you
> to fine tune traction management per corner on a closed circuit. How
> freaking cool would that be? Go out for the first session, come back,
> the computer knows what the lap looks like. Plug in your laptop and
> allow it to give you more slip out of turn X. Go back out and try it
> out. I think it'd be fun.

I like it in theory and would love to have some kind of setup like
that for a track day on my own personal bike, but for racing purposes,
I'd rather see the rider be the traction control. That's why I love
racing, seeing the riders wrestle to control the bike. For me, if the
bike does all the hard work, the racing loses much of its interest.
 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

On 2007-11-10 03:47:40 -0500, Dirt said:

> I like it in theory and would love to have some kind of setup like
> that for a track day on my own personal bike, but for racing purposes,
> I'd rather see the rider be the traction control. That's why I love
> racing, seeing the riders wrestle to control the bike. For me, if the
> bike does all the hard work, the racing loses much of its interest.

Absolutely agree, though I seriously doubt that will stop it from
becoming realty...
 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

On Nov 10, 4:28 pm, T3 wrote:
> On 2007-11-10 03:47:40 -0500, Dirt said:
>
> > I like it in theory and would love to have some kind of setup like
> > that for a track day on my own personal bike, but for racing purposes,
> > I'd rather see the rider be the traction control. That's why I love
> > racing, seeing the riders wrestle to control the bike. For me, if the
> > bike does all the hard work, the racing loses much of its interest.
>
> Absolutely agree, though I seriously doubt that will stop it from
> becoming realty...

I'm curious to see what F1 is like next year now that TC is banned.
I'm hoping they're out of shape all over the place, though I suspect
there are enough engine management tricks that can be pulled like
separate ignition/fuel maps for each gear in each corner of the track
that it won't look much different. MotoGP probably isn't or won't be
much different.
 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

On 2007-11-10 15:01:28 -0500, Dirt said:

> On Nov 10, 4:28 pm, T3 wrote:
>> On 2007-11-10 03:47:40 -0500, Dirt said:
>>
>>> I like it in theory and would love to have some kind of setup like
>>> that for a track day on my own personal bike, but for racing purposes,
>>> I'd rather see the rider be the traction control. That's why I love
>>> racing, seeing the riders wrestle to control the bike. For me, if the
>>> bike does all the hard work, the racing loses much of its interest.
>>
>> Absolutely agree, though I seriously doubt that will stop it from
>> becoming realty...
>
> I'm curious to see what F1 is like next year now that TC is banned.
> I'm hoping they're out of shape all over the place, though I suspect
> there are enough engine management tricks that can be pulled like
> separate ignition/fuel maps for each gear in each corner of the track
> that it won't look much different. MotoGP probably isn't or won't be
> much different.

It might be noteworthy as to how and to what extent they "try" to
enforce a TC ban. I'd imagine that given some time/practice most of
those cars will have something other than a wheel sensor type TC system
in place that will work pretty well right off, there's just too much
info available and coupled with GPS it will be fairly hard to
completely enforce a total ban without dictating a universal engine
mgmt. system.

I can see some friction to any TC ban in MGP, as it might change the
"recruitment" policy/$tandard$ a little too drastically, i.e., hurt the
250 guys... (or not, just a thought, note, I did NOT say Euromeds;-)
 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

"Brutus" wrote in message

>
>
> Pablo, if you want 90hp keep it under 8K or what-ever although it's
> (traction control) another
> complexity that may eventuality cause additional reliabilty problems...

It's not like I shy away from high powered bikes. The problem is torque.
Sure you get 70hp at 6k rpm, but it feels rather unwilling and odd. I like
torquey engines. That's the thing with the last generation of Ducatis in my
humble opinion - they are abandoning some of the traditional 2 cylinder
virtues to deliver on high end power. And then the power comes on so
frantically that electrionics are needed to make in manageable. Look at the
powergraphs. It's linear-linear-exponentially-explosive-high-band in several
cases.

> BTW the 1098R is listed on the Ducati web site as a 1198cc,
> bore/stroke:104 x 64.7 mm (1098) vs
> 106x67.9mm(1098R)....180hp vs 160hp, I have a 1098 and even though the web
> site and all of the mags
> list the hp as160 at the crank, in the owners manual it's 154hp! Oh what a
> disapointment...

Well, I ride a KTM Duke and a BMW R1100S these days. The BMW R1100S, with
its 90hp and rather porky 490lbs, shows that balance in design triumphs in
bike design. I have never had trouble on rides with other sportbike owners,
several of which include the 140hp+, hard edged kind. And I always seem to
arrive at our destination in the more relaxed mood.

But I will of course go with bike development. In theory, I'd prefer a
middleweight 500cc bike, despite my size, but most middleweight bikes these
days are just downsized bigger models build with older parts. That is why I
go for bigger bikes these days, and even though given my size wrestling the
heavier bike isn't a big issue, I still prefer the purity of lighter bikes.
The dynamics seem purer, the whole experience less on the edge, and thus
riding skills can progress more linearly, in my opinion. Something like a
Yamaha R1 is an awesome piece of engineering, but whoever says they push the
edge on that on the street are full of it or suicidal. And in their early
30s, tops, if they put over 100 miles on it a aday with those ergonomics.

 >> Stay informed about: Schuey 5 seconds off the pace 

pablo Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:49:51
>Well, I ride a KTM Duke and a BMW R1100S these days.

You clearly need a SuperDuke or a Street Triple.

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"Julian Bond" wrote in message
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> You clearly need a SuperDuke or a Street Triple.

Two of my absolute favorite bikes. I have been a huge Speed Triple fan for
many years, not sure why I never pulled the trigger on it. Probably because
I always want a shaft-drive and ABS-equipped bike these days, that's what I
use to really put miles on. But I can't do the tourer thing, I need
something that is relatively sporty, and yet is good for all day riding -
hence I love the R1100S. I rode the new one, and prefer mine. But I'll have
to get something else soon, it's getting up there in age, and BMW doesn't
quite build bikes for eternity anymore (especially not the plasticky S).

The Duke is my little hooligan bike, highly annoying, temperamental and
impractical in many ways, but too much fun for a narrow and yet very
rewarding type of use. It actually is the perfect example for a
middleweight bike that is so easy and predictable to handle (most of the
time) that I find myself occasionally sliding it supermoto style on a windy
road (when I have very good visibility). Which of course means that after a
tire "upgrade" where I went for a different brand I nearly found myself in
the ditch and had one of those episodes requiring a mid-ride underwear
change.

Then again, I broke my hand on one of those oh so predictable lower weight
bikes... luck of the draw...
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