Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist

On Feb 8, 6:35 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie....RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "saddlebag" <saddle....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:23cfbd81-a995-4fab-aaa9-7409e09180dd@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 10:51 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie....RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > This is an interesting "debate" - Snell vs. Motorcyclist.
>
> > Dexter Ford of Motorcyclist did a piece on the Snell 2010 standard in the
> > February 2008 issue. Read it. The original expose' below was published in
> > 2005. This is very important information if you believe in Snell ratings
> > or
> > you are shopping for a new lid (especially if you are looking for a helmet
> > for a smaller head - kids) or if you just want to save some cash on your
> > next helmet purchase.
>
> >http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/
>
> > the don't trust Snell
> > reaction:http://luckyll.blogspot.com/2008/01/i-dont-trust-snell.html
>
> OK, so for 2010, the spec will pass lids that are less stiff.  Do you
> think this means the mfgs will start making less stiff lids if their
> current stiff designs still pass muster?  Doubt it.
>
> To me it's a moot point anyway.  You can either buy a cheap
> uncomfortable lid that isn't Snell approved or buy a light, comfy one
> that is.  Since I don't fall on my head too often, I'll go with the
> latter.  Can't live forever ya know.
>
> I high sided summer of '05 and went head first into the road somewhere
> between 30 and 40 mph.

You may have hit the road while traveling at 30-40 mph, but you're
downward force was as it would be if you simply fell from four or five
feet. I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference in Snell or
DOT for that kind of typical MC accident, either will work well. It's
more forceful impacts that the DOT would theoretically transmit less
energy to your noggin. And if you're running headlong into the grill
of a LeSabre, you got more problems than getting your bell rung.

Another problem is that a cheap helmet that passes DOT may also be
hard enough to pass SNELL and just doesn't bother with paying to have
it qualified. Keep in mind the expensive lids pass DOT too.

> Basicly you are paying for that Snell sticker and getting a less safe product.

You are paying for more than a test. That testing may increase the
helmet's cost no doubt, but IMO there is a large gap between the
quality and comfort of a Shoei or Arai (and I don't even particularly
like Arai) and the hundred dollar lids.


>
> This might explain why motorcycle deaths with and without helmets have
> a 50/50 probability ratio though.
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

On Feb 8, 9:53 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie....DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "saddlebag" <saddle....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7ef4a5a8-f203-4a19-83c1-ca38314f3ec4@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 8, 6:35 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie....DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "saddlebag" <saddle....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:23cfbd81-a995-4fab-aaa9-7409e09180dd@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 7, 10:51 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie....DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > > This is an interesting "debate" - Snell vs. Motorcyclist.
>
> > > Dexter Ford of Motorcyclist did a piece on the Snell 2010 standard in
> > > the
> > > February 2008 issue. Read it. The original expose' below was published
> > > in
> > > 2005. This is very important information if you believe in Snell ratings
> > > or
> > > you are shopping for a new lid (especially if you are looking for a
> > > helmet
> > > for a smaller head - kids) or if you just want to save some cash on your
> > > next helmet purchase.
>
> > >http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/
>
> > > the don't trust Snell
> > > reaction:http://luckyll.blogspot.com/2008/01/i-dont-trust-snell.html
>
> > OK, so for 2010, the spec will pass lids that are less stiff. Do you
> > think this means the mfgs will start making less stiff lids if their
> > current stiff designs still pass muster? Doubt it.
>
> > To me it's a moot point anyway. You can either buy a cheap
> > uncomfortable lid that isn't Snell approved or buy a light, comfy one
> > that is. Since I don't fall on my head too often, I'll go with the
> > latter. Can't live forever ya know.
>
> > I high sided summer of '05 and went head first into the road somewhere
> > between 30 and 40 mph.
>
> You may have hit the road while traveling at 30-40 mph, but you're
> downward force was as it would be if you simply fell from four or five
> feet.
>
> True in theory and controlled lab measurements are one thing - the force,
> direction of force and contact time vary a bunch according to your own
> misfortune. I understand real world, after the fact, investigations
> comparing helmet damage to noggin damage are being done - in Europe. I think
> this is a good idea.
>
> I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference in Snell or
> DOT for that kind of typical MC accident, either will work well.  It's
> more forceful impacts that the DOT would theoretically transmit less
> energy to your noggin.  And if you're running headlong into the grill
> of a LeSabre, you got more problems than getting your bell rung.
>
> Another problem is that a cheap helmet that passes DOT may also be
> hard enough to pass SNELL and just doesn't bother with paying to have
> it qualified.  Keep in mind the expensive lids pass DOT too.
>
> I just know I won't be looking for the Snell sticker. I'm not interested in
> paying the Snell foundation a fee for a harder shell that, if only in
> theory, could result in more g's and more trauma. Also my taste is more
> towards the beer end rather than champaign end of the spectrum. Also I have
> no problem buying a lid made in China.
>
> > Basicly you are paying for that Snell sticker and getting a less safe
> > product.
>
> You are paying for more than a test.  That testing may increase the
> helmet's cost no doubt, but IMO there is a large gap between the
> quality and comfort of a Shoei or Arai (and I don't even particularly
> like Arai) and the hundred dollar lids.
>
> What do you wear Saddle?

A Shoei RF1000 - Quietest, most stable, easiest shield removal and all
around favorite lid.
An Arai Quantum - Most comfy, but it's loud and I've broken plastic
pieces jostling vents, and shield removal is a PITA.
A HCJ Openface - Uber cheap and comfy hat. Used mainly for
commuting. Easiest to discharge morning post nasal congestion. Don't
usually wear it if I'm going to be riding hard. I'd buy an HJC full
face it I could find one that fit as well.

> What factors (aside from fit/comfort) are important to you?

None. I'd probably not even wear one if it they didn't make riding so
much more comfortable.

> Are you loyal to a particular model or brand? Why?

No
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

"saddlebag" <saddlebag.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:23cfbd81-a995-4fab-aaa9-7409e09180dd@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 7, 10:51 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie....DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
> This is an interesting "debate" - Snell vs. Motorcyclist.
>
> Dexter Ford of Motorcyclist did a piece on the Snell 2010 standard in the
> February 2008 issue. Read it. The original expose' below was published in
> 2005. This is very important information if you believe in Snell ratings
> or
> you are shopping for a new lid (especially if you are looking for a helmet
> for a smaller head - kids) or if you just want to save some cash on your
> next helmet purchase.
>
> http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/
>
> the don't trust Snell
> reaction:http://luckyll.blogspot.com/2008/01/i-dont-trust-snell.html


OK, so for 2010, the spec will pass lids that are less stiff. Do you
think this means the mfgs will start making less stiff lids if their
current stiff designs still pass muster? Doubt it.

To me it's a moot point anyway. You can either buy a cheap
uncomfortable lid that isn't Snell approved or buy a light, comfy one
that is. Since I don't fall on my head too often, I'll go with the
latter. Can't live forever ya know.

I high sided summer of '05 and went head first into the road somewhere
between 30 and 40 mph. I didn't loose conciousness nor was I concussed. I
pulled a lot of g's though and I was probably close to some threshold of
significant personal damage. I was wearing a cheap HJC full face. Good thing
it was a full face or I'd fave left the lower half of my face on the road.
Ford's articals, based on good science, says that the DOT rating is more
important than the discreditted Snell. Basicly you are paying for that Snell
sticker and getting a less safe product.

This might explain why motorcycle deaths with and without helmets have
a 50/50 probability ratio though.
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

On Feb 7, 10:51 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie....TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> wrote:
> This is an interesting "debate" - Snell vs. Motorcyclist.
>
> Dexter Ford of Motorcyclist did a piece on the Snell 2010 standard in the
> February 2008 issue. Read it. The original expose' below was published in
> 2005. This is very important information if you believe in Snell ratings or
> you are shopping for a new lid (especially if you are looking for a helmet
> for a smaller head - kids) or if you just want to save some cash on your
> next helmet purchase.
>
> http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/
>
> the don't trust Snell reaction:http://luckyll.blogspot.com/2008/01/i-dont-trust-snell.html
>
> Hearing Protection Reviews. A better earplug for '08?http://www.webbikeworld.com/Earplugs/disposable-ear-plugs.htm
>
> Rob
> KLR650

Just a little additional info. The Loudon Road Racing Series (LRRS)
has specific requirements for helmets.

"Helmets

Polycarbonate helmets are not allowed.

Helmets may not be more than 5 years old as determined by the date of
manufacture in or on the helmet.

Helmets must be full coverage with an attached face shield. Tear-off's
are not
allowed. Quick release helmet straps are also not allowed unless
original
equipment. The helmet must meet DOT plus Snell approval or the British
Blue
Label standard BSI 6658 Type A helmet standard or the European
ECE22-04 &
ECE22-05 P standard. The appropriate stickers must be attached. Any
helmet
that has been damaged or suffered a severe impact must be replaced or
sent
to the manufacturer to be inspected. All helmets must pass tech
inspection.
The riders number must be displayed on the helmet."

There are a number of polycarbonate helmets that are Snell certified,
but the club has banned their use. It is not a snob thing but was
done because the polycarbonate helmets were over-represented in
observed head injuries at the track. I don't think it has anything to
do with the shell bouncing back into shape, since any added force from
that would show up as G forces in the drop tests. The best we can
figure is that it is from the plastic sticking to the pavement and
imparting a rotation when you hit the pavement. That would not show
up in the drop tests because they don't include any horizontal
motion. As you can see the club does allow helmets that pass BSI ore
ECE standards, so you can go that route if you choose to. You'll
notice it is against the rules to add a quick release to the strap.
We had a few of these break causing helmets to come off.

The other club that I race with is the United States Classic Racing
Association (USCRA). They require helmets that meet Snell M2005 or
the latest BSI/ECE standards. They do not have any rule against
polycarbonate helmets so long as they meet the required standards.

Best I can tell the reason neither club will allow helmets with just
DOT certification is because there is no verification that the helmets
do in fact fulfill the requirements of the standard.

For those that say the high G's of the stiffer helmets don't matter
when taking lighter hits that are more typical, the G's are
proportional in lower force impacts as well. IOW in the lighter
impacts the softer helmet will transmit fewer G's than the stiff
helmet as well. And despite what the guy from Snell says, it only
makes sense that lower G's are always better than higher G's even if
the higher G's are below some arbtrary limit.

As for those that say the top shelf helmets are worth the extra bucks
because of fit/finish/vents/padding/sound or whatever feel free to
spend your money. I have found less expensive helmets that are
perfectly comfortable and quiet.

Two things I personally try to steer clear of when buying a helmet are
ones that have seriously weakened the chin bar with vents, and ones
that have protrusions that could catch and spin the head when
sliding. And I wont pay a dollar extra for special graphics or the
signiture of some racer on the helmet.

My current helmet is a Z1R with a composit shell and Snell
certification. They don't say what the composit is, but it doesn't
say polycarbonate so I can use it to race with either of the clubs.
Prior to that I used a HJC, not sure of the model but I think it was a
CL-12. I do know it had a polycarbonate shell and was Snell
certified.

BTW, it is my understanding that the main reason polycarbonate helmets
didn't get Snell certified in the early days was because they would
stand up to some of the solvent tests. If you painted a polycarbonate
shell it could become brittle and crack on impact.

It would be nice if one of the standards required the listing of the
actual G's observed when the helmet is tested rather than just giving
a pass or fail for some threshold. If that were done I think there
would be a rapid reduction in G forces while still maintaining the
ability to deal with a hard hit.

Bruce Richmond
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

"saddlebag" <saddlebag DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:7ef4a5a8-f203-4a19-83c1-ca38314f3ec4@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 8, 6:35 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie... DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:
> "saddlebag" <saddle... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:23cfbd81-a995-4fab-aaa9-7409e09180dd@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 10:51 pm, "Robert Striemer" <rjstrie... DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > This is an interesting "debate" - Snell vs. Motorcyclist.
>
> > Dexter Ford of Motorcyclist did a piece on the Snell 2010 standard in
> > the
> > February 2008 issue. Read it. The original expose' below was published
> > in
> > 2005. This is very important information if you believe in Snell ratings
> > or
> > you are shopping for a new lid (especially if you are looking for a
> > helmet
> > for a smaller head - kids) or if you just want to save some cash on your
> > next helmet purchase.
>
> >http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/
>
> > the don't trust Snell
> > reaction:http://luckyll.blogspot.com/2008/01/i-dont-trust-snell.html
>
> OK, so for 2010, the spec will pass lids that are less stiff. Do you
> think this means the mfgs will start making less stiff lids if their
> current stiff designs still pass muster? Doubt it.
>
> To me it's a moot point anyway. You can either buy a cheap
> uncomfortable lid that isn't Snell approved or buy a light, comfy one
> that is. Since I don't fall on my head too often, I'll go with the
> latter. Can't live forever ya know.
>
> I high sided summer of '05 and went head first into the road somewhere
> between 30 and 40 mph.

You may have hit the road while traveling at 30-40 mph, but you're
downward force was as it would be if you simply fell from four or five
feet.

True in theory and controlled lab measurements are one thing - the force,
direction of force and contact time vary a bunch according to your own
misfortune. I understand real world, after the fact, investigations
comparing helmet damage to noggin damage are being done - in Europe. I think
this is a good idea.

I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference in Snell or
DOT for that kind of typical MC accident, either will work well. It's
more forceful impacts that the DOT would theoretically transmit less
energy to your noggin. And if you're running headlong into the grill
of a LeSabre, you got more problems than getting your bell rung.

Another problem is that a cheap helmet that passes DOT may also be
hard enough to pass SNELL and just doesn't bother with paying to have
it qualified. Keep in mind the expensive lids pass DOT too.

I just know I won't be looking for the Snell sticker. I'm not interested in
paying the Snell foundation a fee for a harder shell that, if only in
theory, could result in more g's and more trauma. Also my taste is more
towards the beer end rather than champaign end of the spectrum. Also I have
no problem buying a lid made in China.

> Basicly you are paying for that Snell sticker and getting a less safe
> product.

You are paying for more than a test. That testing may increase the
helmet's cost no doubt, but IMO there is a large gap between the
quality and comfort of a Shoei or Arai (and I don't even particularly
like Arai) and the hundred dollar lids.

What do you wear Saddle? What factors (aside from fit/comfort) are important
to you? Are you loyal to a particular model or brand? Why?


> This might explain why motorcycle deaths with and without helmets have
> a 50/50 probability ratio though.
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

Robert Striemer <rjstriemer.RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> I high sided summer of '05 and went head first into the road somewhere
> between 30 and 40 mph. I didn't loose conciousness nor was I concussed. I
> pulled a lot of g's though and I was probably close to some threshold of
> significant personal damage. I was wearing a cheap HJC full face. Good thing

My cheap HJC is Snell certified. I've had a pretty hard hitting highside
with it also, and no complaints. On the way down, I just knew I was going
to get knocked out. I don't remember bouncing all that much (two set of
impacts on my leathers and helmet), but if I was out, it was only for
an instant. Oddly enough, as I was plummeting back to Earth, with my
head and upper back pointed down, the thought going through my head was
"huh, maybe I should have shelled out a few bucks for that Arai - I'm about
to hit my head *really* hard on the asphalt." I'm glad I didn't, the AC-12
fits me much better than the Arai made for my head.

> Ford's articals, based on good science, says that the DOT rating is more
> important than the discreditted Snell. Basicly you are paying for that Snell
> sticker and getting a less safe product.

Not exactly. The only problem with a DOT only certification is there is
no guarantee that a DOT helmet is actually up to DOT standards. The testing
for DOT is random, and not always done. Helmets that have been on the market
have been known to fail the DOT test once they were finally tested.

Here is the thing - HJC is a good example. They sell a high quality Snell
helmet that is just fine for racing. You can pick them up for $206 off the
internet. How can they do this while Arai sells a helmet that will protect
you no better for 3 times the cost? It is actually very simple. First, the
Arai has a much greater attention to detail. The liner is much more
comfortable, the quality of the paint is vastly superior (and more durable),
etc.... But what really separates the price is Arai *only* sells top of the
line helmets. They need to make more profit on the relatively few helmets
they sell. HJC, on the other hand, is the world's leading manufacturer
of helmets. They have a huge line of super cheap helmets to make a profit
off of. They don't need to make as much of a profit off their top of the
line helmets - they don't need to charge as much to still make an acceptable
bottom line.

My view is you buy the DOT/Snell helmet that fits your head best. My
reasoning for Snell is the testing is guaranteed to have been done. Yes,
you are paying just for a sticker - that sticker means a good deal.

I also would not ride with a polycarb shell'ed helmet that you might find
on a DOT only. Those have a tendency to bounce a bit. Sure, they might not
transfer as much energy to your skull, but the bounce is bad enough in a good
crash.

A DOT only helmet is probably a better option in a low speed, 35 mph crash.
But, I want something that will hold up in a 100 mph crash, or a lower speed
crash where I catch a fire hydrant with the helmet. There is more to it
than just energy transfer measured in a laboratory. I believe many, many
years of racing by many, many, riders, backs up that Snell helmets are
not dangerous.

> This might explain why motorcycle deaths with and without helmets have
> a 50/50 probability ratio though.

I think that has more to do with how you can have pretty spectacular crashes
without hitting your head/helmet, and that many fatal crashes on the street
involve things like telephone poles, guardrails, and other cars running over
you.

- Kurt
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

I have an $89 head. That's what my new HJC Snell 2005 helmet for
racing Moto-ST cost.

I think it's over-valued.
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

On Feb 10, 9:44 pm, Tim Morrow <ct.mor....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have an $89 head.   That's what my new HJC Snell 2005 helmet for
> racing Moto-ST cost.
>
> I think it's over-valued.

The helmet or your head?
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

On Feb 11, 12:15 am, "bsr3...@my-deja.com" <bsr3....DeleteThis@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> On Feb 10, 9:44 pm, Tim Morrow <ct.mor....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have an $89 head.   That's what my new HJC Snell 2005 helmet for
> > racing Moto-ST cost.
>
> > I think it's over-valued.
>
> The helmet or your head?

Yes.
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

On Feb 11, 8:00 pm, ~kurt <actinouran....DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Tim Morrow <ct.mor....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have an $89 head.   That's what my new HJC Snell 2005 helmet for
> > racing Moto-ST cost.
>
> One thing I can't stand are the Arai snobs who push the "how much is
> your head worth" FUD.  Yea, say whatever you want to make yourself feel better
> about having spent $500-700 on a helmet.  Really, one crash, and you can be
> out $700 - that is nuts.  It is a non-issue for me.  The AC-12 fits me
> better than any of the other helmets I have tried on.
>
> - Kurt

Seeing as how I have crashed at the racetrack in Shoei, Arai, and HJC
helmets ranging from over $600 retail to as little as $169 retail, and
never received a head injury of any sort, I am the last person in the
world to be a helmet snob.
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 01:00:31 +0000, ~kurt wrote:

> Tim Morrow <ct.morrow.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have an $89 head. That's what my new HJC Snell 2005 helmet for
>> racing Moto-ST cost.
>>
>>
> One thing I can't stand are the Arai snobs who push the "how much is
> your head worth" FUD. Yea, say whatever you want to make yourself feel
> better about having spent $500-700 on a helmet. Really, one crash, and
> you can be out $700 - that is nuts. It is a non-issue for me. The
> AC-12 fits me better than any of the other helmets I have tried on.
>

Well honestly, the price of my helmet is probably the least thing I'm
worried about in the event of a crash...

That said, I like my $600 Shoei

Bought it though because it happened to be the one that fit me best and
most comfortably.

--
Stephan
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

��事��出�日�ん�����
��事忘れ�������ら
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

Tim Morrow <ct.morrow RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> I have an $89 head. That's what my new HJC Snell 2005 helmet for
> racing Moto-ST cost.
>

One thing I can't stand are the Arai snobs who push the "how much is
your head worth" FUD. Yea, say whatever you want to make yourself feel better
about having spent $500-700 on a helmet. Really, one crash, and you can be
out $700 - that is nuts. It is a non-issue for me. The AC-12 fits me
better than any of the other helmets I have tried on.

- Kurt
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist 

Tim Morrow <ct.morrow DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Seeing as how I have crashed at the racetrack in Shoei, Arai, and HJC
> helmets ranging from over $600 retail to as little as $169 retail, and
> never received a head injury of any sort, I am the last person in the
> world to be a helmet snob.

I wasn't implying your were, BTW. Given your experience on bikes dwarfs
mine I was actually glad to hear you wear a HJC. There are just so many
people who won't consider anything other than a $500+ helmet.

- Kurt
 >> Stay informed about: Safety First? Snell vs. Motorcyclist