Noyes on AMA. Again

On Jan 8, 2:34 pm, Julian Bond <julian_b....RemoveThis@voidstar.com> wrote:
> T3 <no....RemoveThis@nowhere.net> Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:12:47
>
> >A pretty good article so far, especially the insight offered by the King...
>
> >"If a well-funded team canÕt get hold of competitive parts to make a
> >competitive bike then there is something wrong. If they are telling
> >Michael Jordan that he doesnÕt have enough money to get a competitive
> >bike, then AMA racing is all f*****d up and they need to get out of the
> >way and let somebody fix it.Ó
>
> >Truer words were never spoken!!
>
> I remember we had this out before and I still don't really buy it. Can
> Jordan buy a competitive race bike from Suzuki USA? No. And I don't see
> why that should be a requirement on them.
>
> Does that mean it's impossible to build one, I don't know, but I don't
> think so. If it is impossible then, yes, there is something wrong with
> the rules. It's supposed to be a production based formula where inspired
> tuners can create competitive bikes isn't it?
>
> >As far as Yosh goes, they are a very well-funded team that does have
> >access to the "unobtainium" stuff AND has the 2 best riders to boot...
>
> Yup, I'll buy the 2 best riders bit. But it's that factory unobtainium
> which is the problem. Nobody is saying that competing with the factories
> as a private team should be easy. But it should be possible. Now maybe
> that's what KR-Sr meant.
>
> This debate has been going round and round for decades. In every class
> except Moto-GP, it's important that the factories are kept on a leash
> and things are adjusted to give private teams a chance because otherwise
> grids dwindle and the racing stops being entertaining. Because there's
> always one factory that outspends the others or who kicks off a spending
> war. And if it's not the hardware it's the tyres and some teams getting
> the good ones and others given the bad ones.
>
> --
> Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
> Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
> Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
> Please Give Way

I think a major source of this domination is the fact that AMA has
allowed the factories to have a way to choose which class they want to
be competitive in so as to avoid competition with one another. As it
is, each factory gets a good shot of putting their bike with the #1
plate in their ads from a class of their choosing. This way factory
teams' only competitors are underfunded other factories' teams and
privateers. So long as the factories don't compete with one another,
they are able to continuously feed inferior technology to the
privateers just enough to keep them on the grid, but well at arm's
length in terms of competitiveness of their equipment.

Would making the factories compete head to head make a difference?
Hard to say, but I'm inclined to believe that it would. Effectively,
what it would do is simply force the factories out of slumber and
begin real innovation. If the process of bike development speeds up,
as I think it would in this case, more parts would become available to
the privateers and while they wouldn't necessarily be instantly vying
for podium positions day in and day out, the factories' attention
would be more on each other and less on keeping the little guys off
the box.
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

On 2008-01-08 14:51:30 -0500, Alexey <inline_four.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> said:

> I think a major source of this domination is the fact that AMA has
> allowed the factories to have a way to choose which class they want to
> be competitive in so as to avoid competition with one another. As it
> is, each factory gets a good shot of putting their bike with the #1
> plate in their ads from a class of their choosing. This way factory
> teams' only competitors are underfunded other factories' teams and
> privateers. So long as the factories don't compete with one another,
> they are able to continuously feed inferior technology to the
> privateers just enough to keep them on the grid, but well at arm's
> length in terms of competitiveness of their equipment.
>
> Would making the factories compete head to head make a difference?
> Hard to say, but I'm inclined to believe that it would. Effectively,
> what it would do is simply force the factories out of slumber and
> begin real innovation. If the process of bike development speeds up,
> as I think it would in this case, more parts would become available to
> the privateers and while they wouldn't necessarily be instantly vying
> for podium positions day in and day out, the factories' attention
> would be more on each other and less on keeping the little guys off
> the box.

It's prolly more about control than anything else, the OEM's spend the
money and they want control and the AMA over the years have, if not
encouraged, surely allowed them to do just that. However, at some point
if motorcycle racing in this country is to grow, or more specifically,
go mainstream, that model needs "some tuning" and trust me on this, the
OEM's won't like it...
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

T3 <notme DeleteThis @nowhere.net> Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:12:47
>A pretty good article so far, especially the insight offered by the King..
>
>"If a well-funded team canÕt get hold of competitive parts to make a
>competitive bike then there is something wrong. If they are telling
>Michael Jordan that he doesnÕt have enough money to get a competitive
>bike, then AMA racing is all f*****d up and they need to get out of the
>way and let somebody fix it.Ó
>
>Truer words were never spoken!!

I remember we had this out before and I still don't really buy it. Can
Jordan buy a competitive race bike from Suzuki USA? No. And I don't see
why that should be a requirement on them.

Does that mean it's impossible to build one, I don't know, but I don't
think so. If it is impossible then, yes, there is something wrong with
the rules. It's supposed to be a production based formula where inspired
tuners can create competitive bikes isn't it?

>As far as Yosh goes, they are a very well-funded team that does have
>access to the "unobtainium" stuff AND has the 2 best riders to boot...

Yup, I'll buy the 2 best riders bit. But it's that factory unobtainium
which is the problem. Nobody is saying that competing with the factories
as a private team should be easy. But it should be possible. Now maybe
that's what KR-Sr meant.

This debate has been going round and round for decades. In every class
except Moto-GP, it's important that the factories are kept on a leash
and things are adjusted to give private teams a chance because otherwise
grids dwindle and the racing stops being entertaining. Because there's
always one factory that outspends the others or who kicks off a spending
war. And if it's not the hardware it's the tyres and some teams getting
the good ones and others given the bad ones.

--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Please Give Way
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

On 2008-01-08 14:34:59 -0500, Julian Bond <julian_bond DeleteThis @voidstar.com> said:

> T3 <notme DeleteThis @nowhere.net> Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:12:47
>> A pretty good article so far, especially the insight offered by the King..
>>
>> "If a well-funded team canÍt get hold of competitive parts to make a
>> competitive bike then there is something wrong. If they are telling
>> Michael Jordan that he doesnÍt have enough money to get a competitive
>> bike, then AMA racing is all f*****d up and they need to get out of the
>> way and let somebody fix it.î
>>
>> Truer words were never spoken!!
>
> I remember we had this out before and I still don't really buy it. Can
> Jordan buy a competitive race bike from Suzuki USA? No. And I don't see
> why that should be a requirement on them.

Well, it's a production based series isn't it? And I'm pretty sure
producer's still like to produce, so, why not make it a requirement
that they produce enough for anyone who can afford it? And while I'm at
it and even though just the thought of HP caps make many/all my tuner
friends nauseous, maybe they're due too..

>
> Does that mean it's impossible to build one, I don't know, but I don't
> think so. If it is impossible then, yes, there is something wrong with
> the rules. It's supposed to be a production based formula where
> inspired tuners can create competitive bikes isn't it?

You answered your own question, I think..
>
>> As far as Yosh goes, they are a very well-funded team that does have
>> access to the "unobtainium" stuff AND has the 2 best riders to boot...
> 0
> Yup, I'll buy the 2 best riders bit. But it's that factory unobtainium
> which is the problem. Nobody is saying that competing with the
> factories as a private team should be easy. But it should be possible.
> Now maybe that's what KR-Sr meant.
>
> This debate has been going round and round for decades. In every class
> except Moto-GP, it's important that the factories are kept on a leash
> and things are adjusted to give private teams a chance because
> otherwise grids dwindle and the racing stops being entertaining.

Hmm, that sounds familiar, sorta' like, well, now..


> Because there's always one factory that outspends the others or who
> kicks off a spending war. And if it's not the hardware it's the tyres
> and some teams getting the good ones and others given the bad ones.

It's always something, always...


Grand AM buys it and makes the King, well, the King! Yeah, that's the
ticket!!! (That is, as long as he doesn't try to make it a family
affair)
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

T3 <notme RemoveThis @nowhere.net> Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:18:42
>Well, it's a production based series isn't it? And I'm pretty sure
>producer's still like to produce, so, why not make it a requirement
>that they produce enough for anyone who can afford it? And while I'm at
>it and even though just the thought of HP caps make many/all my tuner
>friends nauseous, maybe they're due too..

It's a balancing trick. If you force factories to produce a full
race-kit, you'll force some factories out of the series. I guess because
I'm closer to BS and WSB, my position is that the rules should make it
possible for a Ten Kate or Stobart team (or even a Rizla-Suzuki) to take
a bike off the show-room floor, a few race kit parts and more 3rd party
parts and build a competitive race bike. What I don't especially like is
the situation that private Ducatis got to where you had to buy a full
race bike from Ducati because you needed the frame, engine, engine
management from the factory because you couldn't get that anywhere else.

>> Does that mean it's impossible to build one, I don't know, but I
>>don't think so. If it is impossible then, yes, there is something
>>wrong with the rules. It's supposed to be a production based formula
>>where inspired tuners can create competitive bikes isn't it?
>
>You answered your own question, I think..

BSB has pulled the rules back so that BSB engines are in the same kind
of tune as WSS or AMA FX with stock crank, conrod, pistons. This is
another balancing trick. It's actually back to where it was a few years
ago until Suzuki started breaking cranks and rods and were allowed to
change them to get some reliability. The downside is that the well
funded (factory) teams will be selecting large numbers of balanced
matched sets and maybe changing them more often. But then this is what
happens in WSS now. It doesn't necessarily get cheaper but at least
there's a plentiful supply.

>It's always something, always...

Heh!

I think the AMA SBK in the last couple of years is less a reflection on
Suzuki's brilliance and more a failure by the other teams. The Yosh team
is clearly right at the top of their game but Honda, Yamaha and Kawasaki
seem to be only playing at it. And of course I don't want to see Hodgson
be totally disappointing, not because he can't ride but because American
Honda can't put together a competitive package.

--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Please Give Way
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

Julian Bond wrote:

> I think the AMA SBK in the last couple of years is less a reflection on
> Suzuki's brilliance and more a failure by the other teams. The Yosh team
> is clearly right at the top of their game but Honda, Yamaha and Kawasaki
> seem to be only playing at it. And of course I don't want to see Hodgson
> be totally disappointing, not because he can't ride but because American
> Honda can't put together a competitive package.

Seems to me it's a bit broader than that, the failure for the others
starts at the top in Japan. Suzuki has kept their hand in at the SB
level in the MotoGP era more than any of the other Japanese factories,
and the development of that bike has to some material extent been
impacted by the American Yosh team, with Mladin and his very competent
team providing steady top-level feedback for a decade now. That creates
a very solid foundation, and the bikes reflect that, nothing like Suzuki
10-15 years ago in SB.

Then Suzuki here has shown a greater level of commitment to SB than any
other factory, with the possible exception of Honda. But Honda had their
parting with HRC, which was said to be an expense issue. That may have
been a cutback in the budget allocation, or it may have been HRC
overpricing what they provided, which wouldn't be a surprise given their
disconnection to WSB. American Honda felt they could do better on their
own, and it's hard to argue that they have managed that, although it
certainly isn't due to a lack of effort, which looks substantial. It may
be that it should be blamed on riders and the base machine and other
things. The retention of Duhamel this year suggests to me they are as
concerned about the PR aspect of things as much as taking their best
shot at winning, but that's just a personal opinion, they could well
believe he's their best shot.

Yamaha and Kawasaki, they have clearly been crippled by the ratcheting
back of SB development programs in Japan, which was directly linked to
the dropping out of WSB and the MotoGP projects. Both teams had gone
in-house in the late '90s and were therefore less prepared to deal with
that occurrence, and they certainly have had the smallest SB budgets as
well; before their withdrawal from SB we saw both teams slide back to a
single rider (Gobert and Bostrom) at a time when Honda and Suzuki were
running three. Now they are trying to rebuild their programs, but are
working their way out of a deep hole. To this point one would not have
expected all that much.

Ducati seems only interested in taking part in series where they can and
do win regularly, and one of their approaches to this is to leverage
their involvement with obtaining rules advantages, as their machines are
fundamentally different than the others. The AMA has largely been
resistant to these efforts, so Ducati has been in and out of the series
repeatedly, almost no consistent effort. I suspect that the budget to
run a full effort plays a big part as well.

Regarding Hodgson, remember that he was the primary benefactor of the
most significant Ducati effort since the V&H-Gobert days of the late
'90s, and even at that there was little success against Mladin-Suzuki,
actually none at all. So I don't know that even a top effort by Honda
fully supported by HRC would yield anything different. It would seem
more likely that there would have to be a failure at Yosh instead - a
mistake in the base machine, a age- or defeat-driven drop in Mladin's
drive, a MotoGP-distracted Spies, a very healthy dose of bad luck, and
maybe all of that. I wouldn't count on anyone approaching their pace
this year, because they've earned it through focus, talent and a lot of
hard work.
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

Mark,

I think you misunderstood the point I was making, which is that the
factories have an almost guaranteed title given the class structure,
so they divvy up the classes and everyone comes home with a win. I'm
not concerned about making privateers competitive with the factories
-- that's impossible and unnecessary. But I am concerned with the
fact that if you're not putting all your muscle into SB, you still get
to come home with a good enough consolation prize and tell in your ads
that you have a champion on your bike. Even if everyone wants a SB
title, they can still use support classes as backup for their
marketing. So there's less pressure on the factories to be full on in
the premier class against one another. I think the following would be
helpful:

* no factory riders in support classes (might be too difficult to
enact without loopholes)
* stronger buy-out rules for support classes than in SB
* consolidate some of the support classes (do we need both SB and SS?)
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

Alexey wrote:
> Mark,
>
> I think you misunderstood the point I was making, which is that the
> factories have an almost guaranteed title given the class structure,
> so they divvy up the classes and everyone comes home with a win.  I'm
> not concerned about making privateers competitive with the factories
> -- that's impossible and unnecessary.  But I am concerned with the
> fact that if you're not putting all your muscle into SB, you still get
> to come home with a good enough consolation prize and tell in your ads
> that you have a champion on your bike.  Even if everyone wants a SB
> title, they can still use support classes as backup for their
> marketing.  So there's less pressure on the factories to be full on in
> the premier class against one another.  I think the following would be
> helpful:
>
> * no factory riders in support classes (might be too difficult to
> enact without loopholes)
> * stronger buy-out rules for support classes than in SB
> * consolidate some of the support classes (do we need both SB and SS?)

I guess I don't agree that the Japanese factories aren't making
sufficient effort in the SB class, and at least the full facory teams
have almost no presence in the support classes today. The two Haydens
will run SS this year, but they are the only factory SB riders who
will, and none of the factory teams have any support-only riders.
Erion does that for Honda, Graves for Yamaha, Attack for Kawasaki, and
various teams get some dregree of Suzuki support, as always. I see
little problem with any of that, although I did have a problem with
Spies domninating in SStock last year.

I think it's VERY hard to make a rules distinction between a factory
and a non-factory rider, that's just asking for trouble. Probably the
best clear distinction that has been made in the past was the old FX
rule that banned any rider who was in the top ten in points in SB,
really no questioning that cutoff. And I don't know that having all
the support classes be without anything like factory-supported riders
is actually a good thing - were classes like 750SS, FX, 250GP, Pro
Thunder really all that great? They sure didn't have me glued to the
fences most of the time. And a purely non-factory class is much more
likely to end up single-brand, as those low-budget privateers are
likely to migrate to whatever machine is fastest or has the highest
contingencies in any given year. Look at SStock last year, which was
almost all Suzuki.

Ideally I'd like to see the factory teams just in SB (or, rather, all
in SB and FX), and then supporting various teams in SS. That creates
more paid ride opportunities, guarantees some level of professional
team participation in the support classes, also guarantees some level
of multi-brand involvement, and makes domination of a single superior
rider on a superior machine less likely. I have no problem with making
SSport some sort of beginner class, shifting the focus of the true
pros to FX. I'm not all that convinced that dumping SStock is a good
thing, but that seems to be a lost battle - my concern is mostly that
it will end up negatively impacting the SB grid. Not sure how one
manages to create that sort of structure, however, although we're now
closer than we have been, I think. A big part of it is having the
factories convinced that it's in their best interest, and not through
punative rules. I think that's what got Kawsaki and Yamaha back in SB.
Banning factory SB riders from SStock several years ago only meant
those teams abandoned SB, not at all what was desired.

When you say "buy-out rules" are you talking about claiming?
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

On Jan 9, 1:58 pm, Mark N <menusb... DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> When you say "buy-out rules" are you talking about claiming?

Yes.
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

On 2008-01-09 02:33:31 -0500, Julian Bond <julian_bond.TakeThisOut@voidstar.com> said:

>
> I think the AMA SBK in the last couple of years is less a reflection on
> Suzuki's brilliance and more a failure by the other teams. The Yosh
> team is clearly right at the top of their game but Honda, Yamaha and
> Kawasaki seem to be only playing at it. And of course I don't want to
> see Hodgson be totally disappointing, not because he can't ride but
> because American Honda can't put together a competitive package.

There's little doubt Suz/Yosh has put more effort in AMA SB than anyone
else, especially so since MGP became , not only very popular, but
expensive too, though it doesn't lend much to the drama of the series
them winning everything. That said, it's hard to recall such a close
title run..

Let's look at what the King suggested;
Roberts believes the only way to level the playing field and to get a
half dozen or so riders sharing the wins on several brands of
motorcycles is to introduce strict limits on engines. Recently, between
the trucks in the Valencia paddock, Kenny explained to me his idea for
leveling the playing field in AMA Superbike, an idea that guarantees
relatively equal power by requiring the use of homologated engines from
each manufacturer built to a specific peak horsepower by the Ôengine
departmentÕ of each competing importer or manufacturer and leased with
guaranteed performance parameters to all teams. Client teams would have
the same engine as the factory team. For example, a homologated
CBR1000RR engine, built at American Honda, run on the test bed and
certified to produce an easily obtainable but satisfactory HP output,
like 190 at the crankshaft (and less for Daytona to avoid tire
problems), would be available to any eligible AMA team that could pay
the price. All four Japanese factories could produce a kitted bike of
comparable power. Roberts, however, would allow ample freedom to fit
aftermarket wheels, brakes (steel), plus swingarms, and links. Of
course there would be standard ECU with no traction control, wheelie
control, or launch control, and everyone would be on the same tires.

Roberts believes the art of racing is in the turning, the overtaking,
and the sliding on corner exits and that todayÕs production engines,
offering as much power as the old 500s but with a more docile delivery,
would give riders and teams more than enough oomph to thrill fans and
challenge riders and technicians, but without the burden of useless
costs for invisible -- and therefore unappreciated (by the crowd who,
at the end of the day, really pay for the show by being there or by
watching on television) technology.

The idea itself is original and Roberts believes in it and presents it
convincingly. It is a better formula for a national series than the
wide-open World Superbike model that is running expenses higher and
higher in WSBK, and it would be really easy to implement, but only
under a respected despot like ÔKingÕ Kenny.

Could something like that work? I dunno, but if they made the races
longer and thru in pit stops I'd damn sure go for it!!


And now Hardcard is trying to make a run..

http://superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jan/080109c.htm

> I thought this part was amusing, "Meanwhile, the manufacturers seem to
> be getting more worried about the direction of the series by the day"

> And well they should be...
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

Julian Bond wrote:
> Alexey
> >I'm
> >not concerned about making privateers competitive with the factories
> >-- that's impossible and unnecessary.
>
> Do you consider TenKate Honda, Alstare Suzuki, Yamaha Italia, Airwaves
> (GSE) Ducati, Stobart Honda, Bike Animal Honda, Sterilgarda Ducati, Hawk
> Kawasaki to be Factory teams or Private teams? Or how about pretty much
> the whole field in WSS? Just so we know we're talking about the same
> thing.

I thought we were talking about the AMA here, and none of those teams
was in the AMA last time I looked. Most of them are also the top
representatives of their various manufacturers in their series, which
makes the label "privateer" very dubious. I believe Alstare runs full
factory Suzukis just like Yosh, so what is the difference betwen them?
Who signs the riders' checks? If you consider the only factory teams
to have been the HRC-supported Honda team in BSB and Ducati Corse in
WSB, then your definition has no application at all to the AMA. In the
AMA I would consider the official teams of the import arms of the
manufacturers to be factory, their top support teams (meaning Erion,
Graves, Attack but probably excluding Jordan and EMGO/M4, who are
quite independent of Suzuki) to be in the gray area, shifting year to
year, and everyone else to be privateers. The line is much clearer in
the AMA than in BSB and WSB, because there are so few independently-
financed, big-budget top efforts and there are such clear OEM
connections. You're pretty much either in a factory transporter or
working out of a clapped-out box van. [That's an exaggeration, but not
by much]
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

On Jan 9, 3:46 pm, Mark N <menusb... RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> year, and everyone else to be privateers. The line is much clearer in
> the AMA than in BSB and WSB, because there are so few independently-
> financed, big-budget top efforts and there are such clear OEM
> connections. You're pretty much either in a factory transporter or
> working out of a clapped-out box van. [That's an exaggeration, but not
> by much]

There is another big distinction in the AMA, which I think is less
clear overseas: what is available to you. One of the reasons so many
privateers are on Suzukis is because they are about the only
manufacturer providing any kind of technical support to the little
guys in the form of parts and knowledge. This stands in stark
contrast to Honda for example. I recall reading a number of
testimonials from different disgruntled Honda privateers in RRW a year
or so ago. The gist was that Honda were making all sorts of promises
of parts and never delivered to anyone outside of a very small
circle. People were going to extreme lengths to get the parts, such
as ordering race kits through friends in Japan because Honda expressly
refused to sell them in the US. One may speculate as to the reasons
for this policy, but if you're on your own with a small budget, the
choice right now is fairly clear that you go with Suzuki unless you
have insider connections.
 >> Stay informed about: Noyes on AMA. Again 

Alexey wrote:
> Mark N wrote:
>
> > year, and everyone else to be privateers. The line is much clearer in
> > the AMA than in BSB and WSB, because there are so few independently-
> > financed, big-budget top efforts and there are such clear OEM
> > connections. You're pretty much either in a factory transporter or
> > working out of a clapped-out box van. [That's an exaggeration, but not
> > by much]
>
> There is another big distinction in the AMA, which I think is less
> clear overseas: what is available to you.  One of the reasons so many
> privateers are on Suzukis is because they are about the only
> manufacturer providing any kind of technical support to the little
> guys in the form of parts and knowledge.  This stands in stark
> contrast to Honda for example.  I recall reading a number of
> testimonials from different disgruntled Honda privateers in RRW a year
> or so ago.  The gist was that Honda were making all sorts of promises
> of parts and never delivered to anyone outside of a very small
> circle.  People were going to extreme lengths to get the parts, such
> as ordering race kits through friends in Japan because Honda expressly
> refused to sell them in the US.  One may speculate as to the reasons
> for this policy, but if you're on your own with a small budget, the
> choice right now is fairly clear that you go with Suzuki unless you
> have insider connections.

I assume you're talking about SB here? Because OEM parts availability
in the SS classes wouldn't seem to be an issue. I know SB race kits
have been an issue with most of the OEMs, but that's nothing all that
new. Regarding Ducati, as Julian said, you pretty much have to buy the
SP race bike, as modifying a street bike, to the extent you can, just
won't get you very far. Doesn't help the growth of competitive
privateers in SB, and perhaps part of machine hologation in SB (and
FX) ought to be some basic availability of a defined race kit at a
reasonable cost (which doesn't mean heavily subsidized). But, as
always, the devil is in the details.

Regarding the functunal line between privateer and factory teams, it
probably can be defined by the answers to a list of questions, like:

1) What percentage of the operational costs are covered by the OEM?
2) How is the base machine obtained and what is it, meaning is it just
the same streetbike anyone can buy or is it already modified and to
what degree, or is it a stripper that includes only specifically-
selected parts that are required to be stock on the racebike?
3) What degree of freedom does the team have in deciding who sponsors
it, what parts suppliers they work with, who they employ as mechanics,
etc.?
4) Who hires the riders, who pays the riders?
5) How much freedom does the team have in deciding what classes to
run?
6) Can they run events other than those in the AMA championship
without OEM approval?

At some point in the answers the line gets crossed. For instance, if
Graves gets basic Yamaha streetbikes with no special parts, does all
the modifying themselves (including replacement of some required stock
parts), fabricating and buying aftermarket parts, makes the decisions
on their riders (even with some sort of veto power by Yamaha) and pays
them (which Halverson claimed they do last year), at what point to
they become a factory team? They're probably covered by Yamaha's
arrangement with Dunlop, Yamaha probably tells them what classes to
run, Yamaha must pay Chuck a substantial amount to run the team, they
probably do a bit more on equipment. So are they a factory team? I
definitely would have said yes a couple years ago when all the factory
riders did SStock for Graves and SSport for Team Yamaha, but now I'm
not so sure.
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