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Next: Early Sporsters ?
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 149
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:41 pm
Post subject: Newbie of the year
Archived from groups: aus>motorcycles (more info?)
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I must be in the running for the newbie of the year award. The ZX6R gets in
an accident with the mechanic and a 3rd party. The mechanic makes a logical
sounding argument that from his experience it would be quicker and easier if
I put in a claim against my insurance, and they recover the cost from the
3rd party driver. I'd get my agreed value, wouldn't lose no claim, or
increase my excess or anything like that.
All that is true of course. Its easy to do, Swan handles everything and all
I have to do is fill in a form and the mechanic loses one of his loaner
BR250s for a few weeks.
Almost by accident I find out the down side. My insurance is a contract with
Swan, insuring me against the worst case, which is a total loss. If they pay
out a total loss that contract is ended. And my premium goes with it. Pay
for a year, lose 10 months. Plus the rego. No wonder the mechanic was happy
for me to claim against my insurance and not his.
So. Decision time. The claim is still being processed, and Swan said today
that I can withdraw my claim anytime before I accept their offer. Do I
cancel the claim and push for the mechanic to claim through his? I can
cancel my Swan policy and get a refund for it. I imagine I'd get market
value from RACQ, the 3rd party's insurer, but whats market value? How do
they calculate it? What are my options?
Anyone been in this situation? Who can I talk to other than Swan?
--
Cheers
Dave (Mojo67)
FZR600 >> ZX6R >> ??? Brisbane
http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm
I used to never be able to finish anything but now I |
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External
Since: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 137
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dave Mojo67 wrote:
> I must be in the running for the newbie of the year award. The ZX6R gets in
> an accident with the mechanic and a 3rd party. The mechanic makes a logical
> sounding argument that from his experience it would be quicker and easier if
> I put in a claim against my insurance, and they recover the cost from the
> 3rd party driver. I'd get my agreed value, wouldn't lose no claim, or
> increase my excess or anything like that.
>
> All that is true of course. Its easy to do, Swan handles everything and all
> I have to do is fill in a form and the mechanic loses one of his loaner
> BR250s for a few weeks.
>
> Almost by accident I find out the down side. My insurance is a contract with
> Swan, insuring me against the worst case, which is a total loss. If they pay
> out a total loss that contract is ended. And my premium goes with it. Pay
> for a year, lose 10 months. Plus the rego. No wonder the mechanic was happy
> for me to claim against my insurance and not his.
>
> So. Decision time. The claim is still being processed, and Swan said today
> that I can withdraw my claim anytime before I accept their offer. Do I
> cancel the claim and push for the mechanic to claim through his? I can
> cancel my Swan policy and get a refund for it. I imagine I'd get market
> value from RACQ, the 3rd party's insurer, but whats market value? How do
> they calculate it? What are my options?
>
> Anyone been in this situation? Who can I talk to other than Swan?
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave (Mojo67)
> FZR600 >> ZX6R >> ??? Brisbane
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font</a>>
> I used to never be able to finish anything but now I
>
>
He was riding it, tough for him. Make him claim against his insurance.
It's not your problem.
--
Stephen
Byron Bay, Australia<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 120
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Dave Mojo67" <mojo67 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2lhp30FcuqogU1@uni-berlin.de...
> I must be in the running for the newbie of the year award. The ZX6R gets
in
> an accident with the mechanic and a 3rd party. The mechanic makes a
logical
> sounding argument that from his experience it would be quicker and easier
if
> I put in a claim against my insurance, and they recover the cost from the
> 3rd party driver. I'd get my agreed value, wouldn't lose no claim, or
> increase my excess or anything like that.
he broke it...he pays for it!
dont stop untill you get the bike fix or replaced with *no* cost to you
mh<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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Since: Jul 11, 2004
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Before you consider funding the repairs from your own insurance you need to
find out ALL the consequences.
Who pays the excess?
What are the terms of your agreement as far as 'other rider' goes? Generally
a higher excess.
Your premium may remain the same but what if you change insurers within the
next five years (quite likely as I've always found Swann to be a ripoff).
The standard question is "any claims within the last 5 years" This is bound
to effect the new quote.
Can you prove the 3rd party was responsible?
Does the 3rd party have insurance and licence?
Do you have the details of the 3rd party? Don't necessarily trust the
mechanics word.
Ultimately you may find you have no choice but to claim as you'll probably
find the mechanic/shop is under no obligation if they decide not to help.
Often they'll get you to sign a waiver when dropping the bike off. (Car
dealers do this all the time)
Regardless of how friendly or helpful the mechanic is I would be dealing
with the manager of the business and put it to him to resolve.
It's a shame to damage such a good bike, if only it was a VFR800 then you
could thank him and get on with your life!
NA
Still got a perfectly good GSX-750F
(and yes it's damn ugly as well) >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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Since: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 349
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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make the claim through his insurance that's what its for
imagine if you didn't have insurance then what would you have done ??
for $5500 you shouldn't have a great deal of trouble finding another bike
whats market value , check things like
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.autotrader.com.au" target="_blank">www.autotrader.com.au</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bikepoint.com.au" target="_blank">www.bikepoint.com.au</a>
and all the bike traders mags , do some cut and paste of bikes on the market
and compare them
to what yours is and you will have the market value
remember they have to pay for the damage done to your bike , they have not
bought your bike
same thing applies if you did $5K to someone's $6K car , you would pay them
$5K and say that's it
my damage has been paid for
"Dave Mojo67" <mojo67.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2lhp30FcuqogU1@uni-berlin.de...
> I must be in the running for the newbie of the year award. The ZX6R gets
in
> an accident with the mechanic and a 3rd party. The mechanic makes a
logical
> sounding argument that from his experience it would be quicker and easier
if
> I put in a claim against my insurance, and they recover the cost from the
> 3rd party driver. I'd get my agreed value, wouldn't lose no claim, or
> increase my excess or anything like that.
>
> All that is true of course. Its easy to do, Swan handles everything and
all
> I have to do is fill in a form and the mechanic loses one of his loaner
> BR250s for a few weeks.
>
> Almost by accident I find out the down side. My insurance is a contract
with
> Swan, insuring me against the worst case, which is a total loss. If they
pay
> out a total loss that contract is ended. And my premium goes with it. Pay
> for a year, lose 10 months. Plus the rego. No wonder the mechanic was
happy
> for me to claim against my insurance and not his.
>
> So. Decision time. The claim is still being processed, and Swan said today
> that I can withdraw my claim anytime before I accept their offer. Do I
> cancel the claim and push for the mechanic to claim through his? I can
> cancel my Swan policy and get a refund for it. I imagine I'd get market
> value from RACQ, the 3rd party's insurer, but whats market value? How do
> they calculate it? What are my options?
>
> Anyone been in this situation? Who can I talk to other than Swan?
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave (Mojo67)
> FZR600 >> ZX6R >> ??? Brisbane
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font</a>>
> I used to never be able to finish anything but now I
>
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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External
Since: Oct 05, 2003
Posts: 351
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Aug 30, 2003
Posts: 2341
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dave Mojo67 wrote:
>
> I must be in the running for the newbie of the year award. The ZX6R gets in
> an accident with the mechanic and a 3rd party. The mechanic makes a logical
> sounding argument that from his experience it would be quicker and easier if
> I put in a claim against my insurance, and they recover the cost from the
> 3rd party driver. I'd get my agreed value, wouldn't lose no claim, or
> increase my excess or anything like that.
>
> All that is true of course. Its easy to do, Swan handles everything and all
> I have to do is fill in a form and the mechanic loses one of his loaner
> BR250s for a few weeks.
>
> Almost by accident I find out the down side. My insurance is a contract with
> Swan, insuring me against the worst case, which is a total loss. If they pay
> out a total loss that contract is ended. And my premium goes with it. Pay
> for a year, lose 10 months. Plus the rego. No wonder the mechanic was happy
> for me to claim against my insurance and not his.
No, you don't lose your premium and your rego. You should have included your
rego in the purchase price. Your insurance premium expires with your bike.
You gamble your premium against the value of the bike, once they've paid you
for the bike, there's nothing left to gamble against. That's why you pay
insurance. Your premium is not just for the bike, it also pays for all the
bullshit and waiting around that you DON'T have to put up with when your bike
gets damaged.
> So. Decision time. The claim is still being processed, and Swan said today
> that I can withdraw my claim anytime before I accept their offer. Do I
> cancel the claim and push for the mechanic to claim through his? I can
> cancel my Swan policy and get a refund for it. I imagine I'd get market
> value from RACQ, the 3rd party's insurer, but whats market value? How do
> they calculate it? What are my options?
Absolutely you claim through the mechanics insurance. If the bike was in his
care, then he is responsible for it until he returns it to you. Get quotes
for the cost of repairs and send them to him. Find out what his insurance
company is willing to offer you... they'll probably pick values close to those
you might find in Redbook. You already know what your own insurance company
is offering, so compare the two and take the best deal, but keep in mind that
your insurance company will act swiftly and you will have your money in a
matter of days/weeks... you might have to wait several months for a cheque to
arrive from his insurance company.
> Anyone been in this situation? Who can I talk to other than Swan?
Why talk to anyone else?
Nev..
'03 ZX12R<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 2233
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Johnnie5" <ducatiau DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40f3bbdf$0$1279$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> make the claim through his insurance that's what its for
>
> imagine if you didn't have insurance then what would you have done ??
>
You would've claimed against the idiot who drove into your bike (same as I
did when it happened to me!).
I agree; it's his fault, let HIM worry about how he's gonna' pay it.
Your insurance is to cover YOUR fuckups!
Clem<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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Since: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 349
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Knobdoodle" <knobdoodle.TakeThisOut@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:2li2s6Fcu0uiU1@uni-berlin.de...
> "Johnnie5" <ducatiau.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:40f3bbdf$0$1279$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> >
> > make the claim through his insurance that's what its for
> >
> > imagine if you didn't have insurance then what would you have done ??
> >
> You would've claimed against the idiot who drove into your bike (same as I
> did when it happened to me!).
yeh but my mum wouldnt pay 
> I agree; it's his fault, let HIM worry about how he's gonna' pay it.
> Your insurance is to cover YOUR fuckups!
yep but also so that you dont have to worry about getting paid
one thing i just remembered is that the person that needs to be chased is
the guy that was driving the car because IIRC the mechanic wasnt at fault
either , so that is where your problem is going to be
so in light of that it might be in your best interest to get paid out now
rather than fight and wait
> Clem
>
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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Since: Aug 30, 2003
Posts: 2341
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Knobdoodle wrote:
>
> "Johnnie5" <ducatiau.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:40f3bbdf$0$1279$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> >
> > make the claim through his insurance that's what its for
> >
> > imagine if you didn't have insurance then what would you have done ??
> >
> You would've claimed against the idiot who drove into your bike (same as I
> did when it happened to me!).
> I agree; it's his fault, let HIM worry about how he's gonna' pay it.
> Your insurance is to cover YOUR fuckups!
Why bother paying for insurance if you're not going to use it?
Nev..
'03 ZX12R<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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Since: Jun 02, 2004
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:25 am
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Dave Mojo67 wrote:
> So. Decision time. The claim is still being processed, and Swan said
> today that I can withdraw my claim anytime before I accept their
> offer. Do I cancel the claim and push for the mechanic to claim
> through his? I can cancel my Swan policy and get a refund for it. I
> imagine I'd get market value from RACQ, the 3rd party's insurer, but
> whats market value? How do they calculate it? What are my options?
Umm... he broke it; he fixes it, replaces it or comes up with some other
compensation that's acceptable to you.
I'd cancel the claim with your insurance company (ask them if you can
suspend it, or cancel it without prejudice (i.e. allowing you to resubmit
the claim in future should you get completely screwed around), but to be
honest, I'd be making a written demand to the mechanic, followed up by
letters from your solicitors and a complaint to the Office of Fair Trading.
Why should you be penalised *at* *all* for someone else's screw up? You
weren't in charge of either vehicle. Claim against the mechanic's insurance,
let them claim against the 3rd party's insurance, and if either tries to
stuff you around, take them both to the cleaners.
- andrewh<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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Since: May 20, 2004
Posts: 20
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:54 am
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Don't most mechanic workshops have one of those 'You leave your machine here
at your risk' signs? What's the story with those anyway? Worth the plastic
they're printed on?
MrBonk (who has always been paranoid about a bike mechanic writing off one
of his bikes)
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.mrbonk.com" target="_blank">www.mrbonk.com</a>
"Dave Mojo67" <mojo67.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2lhp30FcuqogU1@uni-berlin.de...
> I must be in the running for the newbie of the year award. The ZX6R gets
in
>
<snip tale of woe>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave (Mojo67)
> FZR600 >> ZX6R >> ??? Brisbane
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font</a>>
> I used to never be able to finish anything but now I
>
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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External
Since: Mar 08, 2004
Posts: 96
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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His duty of care, his insurance.
If YOU claim on YOUR insurance, as you have found out... it COSTS YOU.
AND ...
you may NOT be able to obtain a new insurance policy or retain a no claim bonus.. on any other vehicle for up to 5 years....
required to disclose all claims when obtaining/renewing insurance.
Therefore ....His/shops insurance...
"Dave Mojo67" <mojo67 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message news:2lhp30FcuqogU1@uni-berlin.de...
> I must be in the running for the newbie of the year award. The ZX6R gets in
> an accident with the mechanic and a 3rd party. The mechanic makes a logical
> sounding argument that from his experience it would be quicker and easier if
> I put in a claim against my insurance, and they recover the cost from the
> 3rd party driver. I'd get my agreed value, wouldn't lose no claim, or
> increase my excess or anything like that.
>
> All that is true of course. Its easy to do, Swan handles everything and all
> I have to do is fill in a form and the mechanic loses one of his loaner
> BR250s for a few weeks.
>
> Almost by accident I find out the down side. My insurance is a contract with
> Swan, insuring me against the worst case, which is a total loss. If they pay
> out a total loss that contract is ended. And my premium goes with it. Pay
> for a year, lose 10 months. Plus the rego. No wonder the mechanic was happy
> for me to claim against my insurance and not his.
>
> So. Decision time. The claim is still being processed, and Swan said today
> that I can withdraw my claim anytime before I accept their offer. Do I
> cancel the claim and push for the mechanic to claim through his? I can
> cancel my Swan policy and get a refund for it. I imagine I'd get market
> value from RACQ, the 3rd party's insurer, but whats market value? How do
> they calculate it? What are my options?
>
> Anyone been in this situation? Who can I talk to other than Swan?
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave (Mojo67)
> FZR600 >> ZX6R >> ??? Brisbane
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font</a>>
> I used to never be able to finish anything but now I
>
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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External
Since: Jan 09, 2004
Posts: 200
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Newbie of the year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I would be making a claim against the mechanic and the cage driver! They
broke it they fix it!! And should not have to claim against your insurance>
Adrian
"Dave Mojo67" <mojo67.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2lhp30FcuqogU1@uni-berlin.de...
> I must be in the running for the newbie of the year award. The ZX6R gets
in
> an accident with the mechanic and a 3rd party. The mechanic makes a
logical
> sounding argument that from his experience it would be quicker and easier
if
> I put in a claim against my insurance, and they recover the cost from the
> 3rd party driver. I'd get my agreed value, wouldn't lose no claim, or
> increase my excess or anything like that.
>
> All that is true of course. Its easy to do, Swan handles everything and
all
> I have to do is fill in a form and the mechanic loses one of his loaner
> BR250s for a few weeks.
>
> Almost by accident I find out the down side. My insurance is a contract
with
> Swan, insuring me against the worst case, which is a total loss. If they
pay
> out a total loss that contract is ended. And my premium goes with it. Pay
> for a year, lose 10 months. Plus the rego. No wonder the mechanic was
happy
> for me to claim against my insurance and not his.
>
> So. Decision time. The claim is still being processed, and Swan said today
> that I can withdraw my claim anytime before I accept their offer. Do I
> cancel the claim and push for the mechanic to claim through his? I can
> cancel my Swan policy and get a refund for it. I imagine I'd get market
> value from RACQ, the 3rd party's insurer, but whats market value? How do
> they calculate it? What are my options?
>
> Anyone been in this situation? Who can I talk to other than Swan?
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave (Mojo67)
> FZR600 >> ZX6R >> ??? Brisbane
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</font</a>>
> I used to never be able to finish anything but now I
>
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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Since: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 149
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:42 pm
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Of all the replies about this I think yours is closest to what I want to do.
Its not just a matter of writing letters and waiting for cheques to arrive,
it requires a bit more thought and investigation. I plan to look into
cancelling or suspending the claim, and discuss the options with the
mechanic. Note I use the generic term "mechanic" to describe this guy's
business, which was not at fault and up to now has treated me pretty well so
I won't prejudice them here. Yet.
The mechanic may find it more expedient to reimburse me for my premium loss
and we just let the Swann claim go through as is. That would be ideal for me
because I'll get a cheque next week, not in a few months time. I've already
checked with Swann and in the circumstances this claim won't hurt me for
future insurance with them, which is consistent with what happened when the
Fizzer was totalled back in March.
Anyway we'll see how it plays out.
--
Cheers
Dave (Mojo67)
FZR600 >> ZX6R >> ??? Brisbane
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/mojo67/mojo67.htm</a>
I used to never be able to finish anything but now I
"andrewh" <org.uglybugger@andrewh> wrote in message
news:lhkhs1-dr5.ln1@news.harcourt.id.au...
> Dave Mojo67 wrote:
>
> > So. Decision time. The claim is still being processed, and Swan said
> > today that I can withdraw my claim anytime before I accept their
> > offer. Do I cancel the claim and push for the mechanic to claim
> > through his? I can cancel my Swan policy and get a refund for it. I
> > imagine I'd get market value from RACQ, the 3rd party's insurer, but
> > whats market value? How do they calculate it? What are my options?
>
> Umm... he broke it; he fixes it, replaces it or comes up with some other
> compensation that's acceptable to you.
>
> I'd cancel the claim with your insurance company (ask them if you can
> suspend it, or cancel it without prejudice (i.e. allowing you to resubmit
> the claim in future should you get completely screwed around), but to be
> honest, I'd be making a written demand to the mechanic, followed up by
> letters from your solicitors and a complaint to the Office of Fair
Trading.
>
> Why should you be penalised *at* *all* for someone else's screw up? You
> weren't in charge of either vehicle. Claim against the mechanic's
insurance,
> let them claim against the 3rd party's insurance, and if either tries to
> stuff you around, take them both to the cleaners.
>
>
> - andrewh
>
>
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Newbie of the year |
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| Related Topics: | Newbie bike advice - I'm looking at getting my bike license and am after a bit of advice in what to watch out for in a particular bike. There is a bike here in Armidale going for $3500 ono. It's a Kawasaki GPX 250 Ninja, 1994 model, with 12 months rego. No mention of # km...
Boring Group Of The year Award goes to.... - Aus.moto, for having the most boring get togethers known to mankind. Poor Kevin Gleeson. You people are as exciting as a bunch of teabags compared to him. http://www.imagine-it.com.au/ausmoto/dins/din044.htm ..
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FS : Honda RS125R (gp bike) x 2 ( Byron Bay) - Posting on behalf of a friend http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~les/forsale/ This is a really cheap way of getting into the sport - ideal for juniors to learn senior roadracing if still 15yo -- Daron ebay? - http://tinyurl.com/ykgh |
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