Musings on MJ.....

Mark N <menusbaum DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
 >If he wants to be a long-term player who has an impact, then he should cut
 >some sort of deal with Kawasaki or Yamaha, then hire Muzzy or Vance/Leonard
 >to run the team, develop the bikes and have meaningful input into the rider
 >choices.

So who's running the team and developing the bikes? Surely not, MJ.

ISTR a thread on this newsgroup a few years ago asking what you would
tell someone who said they had $1M and wanted to run a bike in xxx. Well
now we get to see.

The answer for GSE and Monstermob was to buy Ducatis. But as you point
out, first you have to go and buy the members of the team. Of course I'm
also curious to see how good a non-Ducati you can build if money is not
much of a problem. I bet people like Harris will be happy to sell you
all the bits and put you in touch with all the specialists you'll need.

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 >And I do think it takes more than money to make a
 >winner - Jordan probably can't build front-running SBs for next year unless
 >a factory sells them to him.

Something that's been puzzling me. The USA Suzuki team recently did some
testing. But they were completely on their own. Suzuki MotoGP weren't
there and neither were Alstare (Kagayama, Corser) or Rizla (Reynolds,
Smart). Those three teams are now tied together by having Paul Denning
as a common factor. That's not to say he's directly involved but he
clearly knows all the players. So are the USA team off to one side? Or
is this just a question of timing and there's nothing to read into it.

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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond DeleteThis @voidstar.com> wrote
 > Something that's been puzzling me. The USA Suzuki team recently did some
 > testing. But they were completely on their own. Suzuki MotoGP weren't
 > there and neither were Alstare (Kagayama, Corser) or Rizla (Reynolds,
 > Smart). Those three teams are now tied together by having Paul Denning
 > as a common factor. That's not to say he's directly involved but he
 > clearly knows all the players. So are the USA team off to one side? Or
 > is this just a question of timing and there's nothing to read into it.

I really don't see why this would be a sign of anything. There was a
combined test at Sepang last year, but isn't that the first time that's ever
happened? Anyway, I don't remember the details, but there were timing issues
involved for the Yosh team. In this case the team had flown to Japan to
build the bikes, then shipped them directly to Sepang for the test. They
probably figured that didn't add a lot to the cost, the weather would be
more reliable that trying it in the US (wrong), and they would have a leg up
before the tire tests at Daytona. Usually the teams don't go to Japan for
bike-building until January, so they do have a big leg up now, especially
important with a new machine. I also suspect that the US team is the lead
development field operation for Suzuki SBs, so having them start early helps
everywhere else.

So what is the Denning connection at Alstare?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.RemoveThis@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:lvVgfZEXtGlBFAgw@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
 > Mark N <menusbaum.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
  >>If he wants to be a long-term player who has an impact, then he should cut
  >>some sort of deal with Kawasaki or Yamaha, then hire Muzzy or
  >>Vance/Leonard
  >>to run the team, develop the bikes and have meaningful input into the
  >>rider
  >>choices.
 >
 > So who's running the team and developing the bikes? Surely not, MJ.

It appears that's the problem Kaw, Duc and Yam have with his offer, rumor
has it that he wants full control. Suz is in a better position to gamble and
just to give him the bikes. They've got Mat as their hole card, it looks
like a win-win deal for them....

 > ISTR a thread on this newsgroup a few years ago asking what you would tell
 > someone who said they had $1M and wanted to run a bike in xxx. Well now we
 > get to see.

I'd imagine it would take more than a mil., maybe twice that..

 >
 > The answer for GSE and Monstermob was to buy Ducatis. But as you point
 > out, first you have to go and buy the members of the team. Of course I'm
 > also curious to see how good a non-Ducati you can build if money is not
 > much of a problem. I bet people like Harris will be happy to sell you all
 > the bits and put you in touch with all the specialists you'll need.
 >
I'd bet Harris would love to do just that!!

Tom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Mark N" <menusbaum.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d_Gdnctz9fXUwgncRVn-2w@giganews.com...
 > The thing about Jordan is that he brings so much money with him that it
 > has
 > the potential to distort everything in this sport, and there's no
 > stability
 > behind it. If he comes in with the best funded team in the series next
 > year,
 > but puts guys on the bikes that don't belong there, then the whole thing
 > becomes a bit of a joke. And I do think it takes more than money to make a
 > winner - Jordan probably can't build front-running SBs for next year
 > unless
 > a factory sells them to him. And what factory wants to put their racing
 > promotion in his hands, if he insists on making all the decisions? What if
 > they don't win next year, and then he heads off to MotoGP or something?
 > What
 > kind of vacuum will he leave behind?

There's that rider-wrench deal, which we all know just doesn't happen
overnight. He could probably find someone to tune a SB "somewhat" to a level
field, power wise. Finding an artist(s) to do that and tune a chasis track
to track too would be difficult without "swiping" a semi-complete existing
team....

 > If he wants to be a long-term player who has an impact, then he should cut
 > some sort of deal with Kawasaki or Yamaha, then hire Muzzy or
 > Vance/Leonard
 > to run the team, develop the bikes and have meaningful input into the
 > rider
 > choices. Then just keep the sponsors happy, keep the team funded, and
 > enjoy
 > it all as he learns the game.

More than likely, exactly what he's been told by Yam, Duc and Kaw too...
Though I wonder if any team with Muzzy, Vance or Leonard paired with MJ
could handle all that ego and not meltdown..

 > And on my list of guys I'd like to see get those rides, in addition to
 > Pridmore - Bostrom, Roberts, Hacking, Chandler, Picotte, Hayes, Rapp,
 > Barnes...

Jamie "Ironman" Hacking cries out for a full SB ride, one tough dude, is
that ever going to happen? Rascal Picotte, isn't he still counting H-D's
money up in Canada, he got a bunch! Doug's done, well, maybe just "rare" but
as I know so well, the clock ticks louder as you get older and is about the
only thing that seems to get faster. Kurtis, never a big fan. BBoss, "wow,"
if ever a guy needed a mentor. Hayes, Rapp and Barnes, now were talking!!

Tom

btw-1 more day here at the kennel, then another to pick up the mess, then
I'm outta here for a little fishin' in the Islands "mon," via that scary
scarab.......<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.DeleteThis@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:pvUjPRFTzGlBFAhJ@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
  > >And I do think it takes more than money to make a
  >>winner - Jordan probably can't build front-running SBs for next year
  >>unless
  >>a factory sells them to him.
 >
 > Something that's been puzzling me. The USA Suzuki team recently did some
 > testing. But they were completely on their own. Suzuki MotoGP weren't
 > there and neither were Alstare (Kagayama, Corser) or Rizla (Reynolds,
 > Smart). Those three teams are now tied together by having Paul Denning as
 > a common factor. That's not to say he's directly involved but he clearly
 > knows all the players. So are the USA team off to one side? Or is this
 > just a question of timing and there's nothing to read into it.

Yoshimura, is Yoshimura, they have almost always done a separate deal,
rightfully so too....Pops was always afraid he would give something away,
almost to the point of paranoia. It's a heritage thing now...

Tom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <d_Gdnctz9fXUwgncRVn-2w RemoveThis @giganews.com>,
menusbaum RemoveThis @earthlink.net says...
 >

 >
 > And on my list of guys I'd like to see get those rides, in addition to
 > Pridmore - Bostrom, Roberts, Hacking, Chandler, Picotte, Hayes, Rapp,
 > Barnes...

Geoff May? He has been quite competitive, especially considering he is
buying his engines from junkyards (when he is not relying on the
kindness of strangers).


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Tweak<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark N <menusbaum.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:
 >So what is the Denning connection at Alstare?

Only that they're an hour away by train (across the channel) and
Kagayama is there after two (traumatic) years working for Denning.

 >I also suspect that the US team is the lead
 >development field operation for Suzuki SBs, so having them start early helps
 >everywhere else.

How the hell does this all work? Is Yoshimura part of the factory? What
actually gets passed from the factory to Yoshimura? Part finished stock
bikes? Or finished race bikes? Or does the question not make sense
because we're talking about next door buildings.

My understanding of the Rizla bikes is that they are built in the UK
with some parts (gearboxes, swingarm, throttle bodies) being supplied by
the factory. So how is the Yoshimura team leading development?

I just find the whole thing odd. The GP team, and the BSB team are both
based in the UK. Alstare are just across the channel. They've been the
official WSS team for several years and were the official WSB team up
till the year before last. It's hard to imagine they don't all talk to
each other. But we're supposed to believe that the other major team in
the world talks only to the factory and is leading development?

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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.DeleteThis@voidstar.com> wrote
 > Mark N <menusbaum.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
  > >So what is the Denning connection at Alstare?

 > Only that they're an hour away by train (across the channel) and
 > Kagayama is there after two (traumatic) years working for Denning.

Jeez, that sounds pretty thin...

  > >I also suspect that the US team is the lead
  > >development field operation for Suzuki SBs, so having them start early
helps
  > >everywhere else.

 > How the hell does this all work? Is Yoshimura part of the factory? What
 > actually gets passed from the factory to Yoshimura? Part finished stock
 > bikes? Or finished race bikes? Or does the question not make sense
 > because we're talking about next door buildings.
 >
 > My understanding of the Rizla bikes is that they are built in the UK
 > with some parts (gearboxes, swingarm, throttle bodies) being supplied by
 > the factory. So how is the Yoshimura team leading development?

Yoshimura is contracted to run the factory Suzuzki team in the US, but it's
far from the Yosh team it used to be 20 years ago, which ran Suzukis but did
it all themselves. They don't even wear Yosh shirts anymore, they're Team
Suzuki shirts, and it's been like that for years. The riders have been
contracted directly to Suzuki for many years. The team spent three weeks in
Japan building the bikes, and I don't know that this wasn't at Suzuki's race
shop and not Yosh's. Not sure that it really matters, because whatever it
is, I would guess that's Suzuki's SB racing program, there aren't pure-bred
Suzuki SBs and then different AMA-bound Yosh-built SBs.

In terms of leading development, the Yosh AMA SB operation has been a
constant for a quarter century. The team's two riders, Mladin and Yates,
both arrived in 1996 and, save for one season each (Mat in '97 and Aaron in
'99) they have been there since. What other team is running the same guys
they did in '96? It is the most successful racing operation Suzuki has, and
one that they find to be very important, given the way that they have funded
it over the years. Not only have they won five SB championships, but also
600SS, 750SS and FX championships as well. Mladin is, with the possible
exception of Roberts, the highest-paid rider Suzuki has. He's also a very
experienced and analytical guy, and has built an experienced and talented
team around him, led by Peter Doyle. I'm sure you know that I think he's the
best rider in the world outside of MotoGP. So to assume that Suzuki wouldn't
lean pretty heavily on these guys for their development direction doesn't
make a lot of sense, does it?

 > I just find the whole thing odd. The GP team, and the BSB team are both
 > based in the UK. Alstare are just across the channel. They've been the
 > official WSS team for several years and were the official WSB team up
 > till the year before last. It's hard to imagine they don't all talk to
 > each other. But we're supposed to believe that the other major team in
 > the world talks only to the factory and is leading development?

WSB and GP teams are always based in Europe, and that means they are always
close to whatever BSB team there is. I doubt that GP teams have much to do
with other teams with any manufacturer, though, as those are different
worlds, even in the MotoGP era. Alstare has always seemed to be more of a
contract team to me and not as close to the core of the Suzuki operation as
Yosh in the US, just as Harris was. Suzuki certainly hasn't made the same
effort to win the WSB championship as they have in the US, even just looking
at the riders they've had - beyond Chili, who's the only guy who ever won a
race, there's been Reynolds, McCarthy, Whitham, Hale, Goddard, Fujiwara,
Chambon, Lavilla. Those are not front-running world championship riders, I
don't think. Regarding 2005, Suzuki still disowns this WSB effort, don't
they? I'm sure that there's a pretty strong backdoor connection, but I doubt
it's quite what they have in the US. The BSB effort seems a half step down
as well.

Anyway, I would think there is some connection between all the Suzuki SB
teams, although it's probably not what it was five years ago. That's when
Suzuki decided to make sure that their WSB, AMA, BSB and AJRR teams all ran
the same tires and suspension, so that they could share meaningful
information. That's also when they started having meaningful SB success,
with Mladin in the US, Walker in the UK, Ryo in Japan, and Chili in WSB. So
lesson learned. But that's broken down some now, with less emphasis on SB,
more on MotoGP, and the tire deal in WSB. I would guess almost all of this
communication runs through Suzuki in Japan, in any case.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond DeleteThis @voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:zo$V+3B+gQlBFAjw@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
 >
Is Yoshimura part of the factory?

Nope, well, maybe, maybe not...

What actually gets passed from the factory to Yoshimura?

Tips, mostly, just not all of them..


Or finished race bikes?

Part "finished "race bikes..

Or does the question not make sense because we're talking about next door
buildings.

Makes sense, just not next door..

 >
 > My understanding of the Rizla bikes is that they are built in the UK with
 > some parts (gearboxes, swingarm, throttle bodies) being supplied by the
 > factory. So how is the Yoshimura team leading development?

They take it and play with it, till Mat says it's righteous. Then they
"play" some more but the bottom line determines who's leading and who's
following...

 >
 > I just find the whole thing odd. The GP team, and the BSB team are both
 > based in the UK. Alstare are just across the channel. They've been the
 > official WSS team for several years and were the official WSB team up till
 > the year before last. It's hard to imagine they don't all talk to each
 > other. But we're supposed to believe that the other major team in the
 > world talks only to the factory and is leading development?

Well, not really, but yes, sort of............Yosh is a R&D outfit that is
tied to Suzuki and exists only to race, they're not part of Suz but very
definately the leader in Suz's SB development.(they develop MX's and Quad's
too) Some may develop SB's for other series but I doubt anyone has even come
close to the sucess Yosh has..."Pop" Yoshimura started to Co. back in the
50's (I think) and ran it out of a garage for years and pretty much made it
the premier R&D M/C Co. around. He croaked a while back and Sakakura runs it
now. They're joined at he "hip" with Suz but I don't think they're actually
part of the Co. or at least they didn't use to be..

It's like this, Yosh tells Suz what is good and what needs help and
sometimes recomends how to help it but sometimes they "fix" it in house and
keep it quiet. In other words, they may show everyone what to know but don't
show them, "everything" they(yosh) know... V&H did the same thing with Duc,
as Muz does with everybody.. Tell them the obvious and how to correct it,
just never tell anybody,everything as you never know who you will have to
beat, next year.......
I'd imagine a lot of what they do filters to the other teams, how quickly
they get it, I dunno....

Tom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"T3" <spambait.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote
 >
 > "Julian Bond" <julian_bond.RemoveThis@voidstar.com> wrote > >
 > Is Yoshimura part of the factory?

 > Nope, well, maybe, maybe not...
 >
 > What actually gets passed from the factory to Yoshimura?

 > Tips, mostly, just not all of them..

 > Or finished race bikes?

 > Part "finished "race bikes..

 > Or does the question not make sense because we're talking about next
door
 > buildings.

 > Makes sense, just not next door..

  > > My understanding of the Rizla bikes is that they are built in the UK
with
  > > some parts (gearboxes, swingarm, throttle bodies) being supplied by the
  > > factory. So how is the Yoshimura team leading development?

 > They take it and play with it, till Mat says it's righteous. Then they
 > "play" some more but the bottom line determines who's leading and who's
 > following...

  > > I just find the whole thing odd. The GP team, and the BSB team are both
  > > based in the UK. Alstare are just across the channel. They've been the
  > > official WSS team for several years and were the official WSB team up
till
  > > the year before last. It's hard to imagine they don't all talk to each
  > > other. But we're supposed to believe that the other major team in the
  > > world talks only to the factory and is leading development?

 > Well, not really, but yes, sort of............Yosh is a R&D outfit that is
 > tied to Suzuki and exists only to race, they're not part of Suz but very
 > definately the leader in Suz's SB development.(they develop MX's and
Quad's
 > too) Some may develop SB's for other series but I doubt anyone has even
come
 > close to the sucess Yosh has..."Pop" Yoshimura started to Co. back in the
 > 50's (I think) and ran it out of a garage for years and pretty much made
it
 > the premier R&D M/C Co. around. He croaked a while back and Sakakura runs
it
 > now. They're joined at he "hip" with Suz but I don't think they're
actually
 > part of the Co. or at least they didn't use to be..

Yosh did start out in Japan in the '50s, in fact 50 years ago this year, but
moved to LA in the '70s. Their connection to Suzuki started with racing
Suzuki-based SBs in the late '70s, winning the championship 79-80. They also
won Daytona SB and the first 8-Hour (Cooley, Baldwin) in '78. Pops moved
back to Japan to restart operations there in the early '80s, leaving the US
ops to his son Fujio, I believe. Then Fujio took over in Japan when Pops
retired, leaving the US R&D ops to Nabe Watanabe, and the race team ops to
Sakakura.

There is no ownership relationship between Suzuki and Yosh, and if you
believe what they say, not even a contract. But I do think Yosh does an
awful lot of the race development on Suzuki four strokes, because they have
always been there to do that. And I suspect the factory takes a lot of what
they say into consideration when they are developing the based machines as
used in racing. Yosh has been the source of the official Suzuki factory SB
kit worldwide for a number of years now. And Crescent Suzuki in the UK has
become quite tied with Yoshimura now, the official supplier of Yosh race
parts in the UK, and all those Yosh parts on their SBs speaks to the
Yosh-Suzuki relationship. Denning himself said this year, "There is no doubt
that Yoshimura parts offer significant performance gains, these are the
official Factory kit parts after all. Using them on our Superbike for the
last four years is testimony to how good the Yoshimura developed parts are."

 > It's like this, Yosh tells Suz what is good and what needs help and
 > sometimes recomends how to help it but sometimes they "fix" it in house
and
 > keep it quiet. In other words, they may show everyone what to know but
don't
 > show them, "everything" they(yosh) know... V&H did the same thing with
Duc,
 > as Muz does with everybody.. Tell them the obvious and how to correct it,
 > just never tell anybody,everything as you never know who you will have to
 > beat, next year.......
 > I'd imagine a lot of what they do filters to the other teams, how quickly
 > they get it, I dunno....

I think the relationship is probably closer than anything Muzzy ever had
with Kawasaki, and much, much closer than V&H and Ducati. There may well be
things that Yosh doesn't share with Suzuki, but their position in terms of
doing business with so many of the Suzuki race teams, and doing so on behalf
of Suzuki, means they must be sharing an awful lot.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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T3 <spambait.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
 >Now I'm not
 >saying that they wouldn't sell you most anything they make but I doubt they
 >give much information away. That implies almost a year before the good stuff
 >makes it way into the pipeline for sharing.

This seems to be the nature of racing. Even when there's no direct
competition, a lot gets kept close. It feels like it's not necessarily
good for business though.

Now imagine if they were software geeks! You'd think that the race
engineers of each of Suzuki's (or Ducati, or Honda) teams would have a
private secure email list and IRC and would be talking constantly about
problems and solutions they'd found. Of course, this type of
communication isn't the Japanese way. But you'd expect Ducati with their
TPG backers and they're embracing the web to do this. Maybe they do.
Austin, Monstermob, Fila and the factory should be constantly talking to
each other.

Considerably harder but now try and imagine this happening with the
riders. eBoz, Laconi, Toseland, Emmett building their own private
communication back channel? Mat, Aaron, Reynolds, Smart, Kagayama,
Corser? Yeah, right, as if. But they should.

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