Motorcycle sales advice

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

>I moved from the Bay Area 3-plus years ago, but, I still consider that
>community to be the most knowledgeable on motorcycles.
>
>By spring this year I hope to have my 1964 BMW R69-S fully restored. I'm
>the original owner and it has 29,000 miles.

Jeeze, a 40+ year break-in!

>I need advice on how to deal with buyers that want to test ride the bike.
>Take a driver's license? Take a deposit? Take their youngest son as a
>deposit?
>What's reasonable and what's safe? The buyer should show proof of collision
>insurance?

My policy is that anybody who wants a pre-purchase ride first hands over my
asking price in cash. If he returns the bike in the same condition as when
he left with it he gets the cash back and negociations can then begin.
Otherwise, I sign the title over to him and keep every dollar of the cash.

Insurance requirements vary depending on state and carrier. The only way to
obtain information certain to apply to your situation is to contact your agent.

>Never done this before. All advice greatly appreciated.

HTH

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

A fully restored R69S is a special case. I would expect that there
would be people who showed up and pretended to be interested just in
hopes of getting a test ride. -I'd- love a test ride!

My dad sold a vintage car once and it wasn't easy to sell, even though
the price was very reasonable. For every serious buyer there were
three people who just wanted to see the car, sit in it, ask about it,
and waste our time. One or two 'buyers' came with cameras and took
three rolls of film of every detail of the car, inside and out and
even underneath, then said 'Thanks!' and left. There's a reason why
so many ads for vintage vehicles say 'serious buyers only, please'.

Your insurance probably covers someone else riding your bike (mine
does, I know, because I asked). But with a bike like that I would
really wonder. It would cost a lot more to put right after a
relatively minor accident. How much is a valve cover for an R69S? Or a
headlight? Think they might balk at that? If they decided to just
total it out would you get your asking price? I bet not. I would
first call my insurance people and ask a lot of pointed questions.

OTOH I wouldn't buy a bike without a test ride and I don't think many
people would. The 100% refundable deposit is not a bad idea I guess,
at least it shows that the person has the money to begin with. (When
I bought my first BMW the dealer wanted to see the balance in my
checkbook!)
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

On Feb 10, 8:11�pm, "Ivan Vegvary" wrote:

> I need advice on how to deal with buyers that want to test ride the bike.
> Take a driver's license?  Take a deposit?  Take their youngest son as a
> deposit?
> What's reasonable and what's safe?  The buyer should show proof of collision
> insurance?

I wouldn't let anybody ride a restored classic motorcycle, period.

Knowledgeable collectors would know what to look for and what to
listen for, and I would tell somebody who was looking for a reliable
transportation bike to look for a five year old Japanese machine
instead.

I wouldn't even tell a guy who wasn't a collector of old British bikes
or long time BMW rider where I lived when I talked to him on the
phone. I wouldn't want a collector's item to end its days as
transportation and get neglected or wrecked.

There are so many scams going on in the big city. What would *you* do
if somebody told you that you should bring a lot of cash to a house in
a ghetto or barrio neighborhood in order to buy a desireable
motorcycle for an attractively low price?

If somebody arrives at your residence in a car and has a motorcycle
helmet in his hand, but there is a driver in the car he arrived in and
the car driver never gets out of the car but just sullenly sits in the
car, that should send up a warning flag that you will never see your
motorcycle again if you let the guy with the helmet ride the
motorcycle. The driver will leave too, and meet his buddy somewhere
else.

If three guys arrive on two motorcycles, and the other two guys take
off after the guy who is test riding your machine, that should be a
red flag that you're never going to see your motorcycle again. I had
three Mexicans on sportbikes try that on me. They were riding GSXR's.
I was selling a GSXR. I would not allow a ride and they quickly left
and never came back.

Another time, a pretty blonde lady arrived in a Lotus with a young
Black guy. She did all the talking, explaining that he was an actor,
just getting started in the movies, and wanted me to let him test ride
my very powerful GS-1100 with the
big bore kit in it.

I told her that I couldn't allow a test ride because only a very
experienced rider could handle all that power. I asked her to show me
the money. She didn't have the money and never came back.

A well-spoken Hispanic guy came to look at my Water Buffalo. He was
from Cuba or Puerto Rico and had a helmet, but I never saw the car he
arrived in.

I should have taken the prospective buyer's license and held the
license and held his cash too. Maybe I should have asked to hold his
car keys as well.

But, I looked at his license and let him test ride my Buffalo. When he
didn't come back immediately, I realized I was a fool for letting him
ride the machine alone.

But he had only run out of gasoline down the street and had to stop at
a gas station. He returned twenty minutes later and bought the Buffalo
and was very happy with the low price.

Having learned my lesson, if I was selling a street bike that the
prospective buyer intended to use for transportation, I would take him
for a half hour demonstration ride on the pillion.

If he had buddies on motorcycles and they wanted to ride along, I
wouldn't take him on the demo ride. If his friend sat in the car and
wouldn't get out to talk to me, I wouldn't demo the motorcycle.

That way, I'd be in control of the situation and my own insurance
would cover any damages or injuries. I would stop somewhere halfway
through the demonstration ride and let the prospective buyer listen to
the engine while it's all nice and warmed up, and it should be
apparent to any experienced rider that the transmission and brakes
worked and the engine ran ok. But he would never be in control of the
machine until he paid for it.

One last caveat. Don't take any personal checks, just cash or
certified checks.

I had a guy pay me a large amount of money by personal check. I took
the check to his own bank to cash it. The bank manager told me "The
funds are not available."

I asked him what that meant, did it mean that there weren't sufficient
funds in the account to cover the check, and he kept repeating "The
funds are not available."

He finally agreed to stamp the check "Insufficient Funds". I contacted
an attorney and he contacted an attorney and they agreed to send me a
certified check.
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

On Feb 10, 9:22�pm, Blazing Laser wrote:

> My dad sold a vintage car once and it wasn't easy to sell, even though
> the price was very reasonable.  For every serious buyer there were
> three people who just wanted to see the car, sit in it, ask about it,
> and waste our time.  One or two 'buyers' came with cameras and took
> three rolls of film of every detail of the car, inside and out and
> even underneath, then said 'Thanks!' and left.  There's a reason why
> so many ads for vintage vehicles say 'serious buyers only, please'.

My friend "inherited" an original 1961 Buick when one of his neighbors
died.

It wasn't worth a whole lot of money, but all he had to do was clean
it up and advertise it. He was only asking $3000, but it was pure
profit.

Two guys came over and looked at the car and left a $500 deposit,
saying they would come back with the rest of the money.

But they decided that they didn't want the car after all, because the
color of the license plates was wrong. An original 1961 California car
should have had black license plates with yellow numbers (or was it
yellow plates with black numbers?), not blue license plates.

They wanted their deposit back. My friend told them that they weren't
going to get their deposit back, because he had to hold the car for
them and he could have sold it to other customers while they were
waffling on the color of the license plate.

About two weeks later, my friend advertised the car again. The same
two guys called up and said, "OK, we decided we want the car after
all, even with non-original plates. We'll bring you the $2500 balance"

My hard nosed friend said, "The price of the car is $3000 firm. You
lost your deposit when you didn't complete the original deal."

The two guys paid the $3000.
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:33:24 -0800, "Michael R. Kesti"
wrote:

>Ivan Vegvary wrote:
>
>>I moved from the Bay Area 3-plus years ago, but, I still consider that
>>community to be the most knowledgeable on motorcycles.
>>
>>By spring this year I hope to have my 1964 BMW R69-S fully restored. I'm
>>the original owner and it has 29,000 miles.
>
>Jeeze, a 40+ year break-in!
>
>>I need advice on how to deal with buyers that want to test ride the bike.
>>Take a driver's license? Take a deposit? Take their youngest son as a
>>deposit?
>>What's reasonable and what's safe? The buyer should show proof of collision
>>insurance?
>
>My policy is that anybody who wants a pre-purchase ride first hands over my
>asking price in cash. If he returns the bike in the same condition as when
>he left with it he gets the cash back and negociations can then begin.
>Otherwise, I sign the title over to him and keep every dollar of the cash.

This is a recommendation I've seen before, in various forms.
Basically, sell him the bike with the agreement that if he doesn't
like it, you'll buy it back at the same price -- provided it's in the
same condition, and with a suitable time limit of course.

Al Moore
DoD 734
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

Alan Moore wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:33:24 -0800, "Michael R. Kesti"
> wrote:
>
>> Ivan Vegvary wrote:
>>
>>> I moved from the Bay Area 3-plus years ago, but, I still consider that
>>> community to be the most knowledgeable on motorcycles.
>>>
>>> By spring this year I hope to have my 1964 BMW R69-S fully restored. I'm
>>> the original owner and it has 29,000 miles.
>> Jeeze, a 40+ year break-in!
>>
>>> I need advice on how to deal with buyers that want to test ride the bike.
>>> Take a driver's license? Take a deposit? Take their youngest son as a
>>> deposit?
>>> What's reasonable and what's safe? The buyer should show proof of collision
>>> insurance?
>> My policy is that anybody who wants a pre-purchase ride first hands over my
>> asking price in cash. If he returns the bike in the same condition as when
>> he left with it he gets the cash back and negociations can then begin.
>> Otherwise, I sign the title over to him and keep every dollar of the cash.
>
> This is a recommendation I've seen before, in various forms.
> Basically, sell him the bike with the agreement that if he doesn't
> like it, you'll buy it back at the same price -- provided it's in the
> same condition, and with a suitable time limit of course.
>
> Al Moore
> DoD 734

I'd have someone go along on a faster bike for the test ride, to
shepherd the prospective buyer. Chances are, a R90 isn't going to be
able to outrun a modern bike.

I'd be very uncomfortable letting someone take a vintage bike out by
themselves. I'd want to know where it was going.

--
Barb
Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)

"Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
produce."

--Molly Ivins
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

On Feb 12, 3:41?am, barbz wrote:

> I'd be very uncomfortable letting someone take a vintage bike out by
> themselves. I'd want to know where it was going.

Generally, a test ride is just a circle around the block to prove that
the vehicle runs.

But a guy I know told me that he convinced the salesman at Bill Ripffer
$on's multi-brand emporium to let him test ride a new BMW. Then he
really test rode it. He took it out for a 2-hour test ride up to
Newcomb's Ranch and back to Hollyweird.

He bought the BMW, but the salesman was fit to be tied when he was
gone for two hours.

You can look up all the laws in the penal code if you want, but you'll
probably find that somebody who keeps your motorcycle without paying
for it and continues to ride it and have reckless fun with it hasn't
even committed the crime of joy riding.

Even joy riding is a minor offense to the police department. The
miscreant might get probation or spend a year in county jail for joy
riding if he doesn't try to get your vehicle registered in his own
name or doesn't hang a license plate on the vehicle that belongs to a
different vehicle. That's a felony.

The cops usually catch joyriders when they are partying and doing
stupid things with a car they stole. The cops don't get indignant when
a private citizen reports his car or motorcycle stolen though.

Ask yourself this: "How would your local police respond to you if you
reported your motorcycle was stolen by a prospective buyer?"

In Los Angeles, the cops would probably tell you that no crime had
been committed because you gave him permission to ride the motorcycle
and you should wait about 48 hours before reporting the motorcycle
stolen.

After all, you did hand the motorcycle over to this person. The cops
might even ask if you expected them to chase this guy down and shoot
him when you insist on them finding your bike. They would tell you to
wait and see if he brought the motorcycle back.

Thieves could strip a motorcycle down to the bare frame in about 2
hours.

The cops might even ask if the guy who was out riding your motorcycle
was actually a roommate or a lover, or try to imply that the thief was
your common law spouse and that your motorcycle was somehow "community
property".

If somebody steals your motorcycle out of your garage at midnight and
you report it, the first thing the cops are going to ask is whether
you were behind on your payments. They would suggest that the
motorcycle had been repossessed by the finance company.

If you call the cops and report that your motorcycle was stolen off
the street, they will ask you if you just forgot where you parked it.

The cops just aren't interested in grand theft auto...

There were some lowlife dopers living in a neighbor's basement when I
lived in Hollyweird. One of them told me that his buddy was driving a
Mazda RX-7 that he'd stolen. The Mazda was parked right there on the
street in front of the building.

I took down the license number and called the police department. They
took down the information and my information and said they'd call be
back. When they did call back, they said the car was in fact stolen. I
asked if they were going to come out and impound the car. They said
that they wanted to catch the guy driving it. I never saw the car
again, but the doper continued to live in the neighborhood.

Another time I was sportriding in the canyons and found a nice Porsche
hidden in the woods. It had no engine, it couldn't have been driven
there. I called the sheriff and the deputy demanded to know why I was
interested in the matter. I asked him if he didn't find the matter of
a Porsche with no engine in it hidden in the woods a little bit
suspicious. He thanked me for being a good citizen and hung up.

Who knows. Maybe the owner of the Porsche just left the car he was
towing in the woods while he went back to town to buy a six pack of
beer...
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

krusty kritter wrote:
> On Feb 12, 3:41?am, barbz wrote:
>
>> I'd be very uncomfortable letting someone take a vintage bike out by
>> themselves. I'd want to know where it was going.
>
> Generally, a test ride is just a circle around the block to prove that
> the vehicle runs.
>
> But a guy I know told me that he convinced the salesman at Bill Ripffer
> $on's multi-brand emporium to let him test ride a new BMW. Then he
> really test rode it. He took it out for a 2-hour test ride up to
> Newcomb's Ranch and back to Hollyweird.
>
> He bought the BMW, but the salesman was fit to be tied when he was
> gone for two hours.
>
> You can look up all the laws in the penal code if you want, but you'll
> probably find that somebody who keeps your motorcycle without paying
> for it and continues to ride it and have reckless fun with it hasn't
> even committed the crime of joy riding.
>
> Even joy riding is a minor offense to the police department. The
> miscreant might get probation or spend a year in county jail for joy
> riding if he doesn't try to get your vehicle registered in his own
> name or doesn't hang a license plate on the vehicle that belongs to a
> different vehicle. That's a felony.
>
> The cops usually catch joyriders when they are partying and doing
> stupid things with a car they stole. The cops don't get indignant when
> a private citizen reports his car or motorcycle stolen though.
>
> Ask yourself this: "How would your local police respond to you if you
> reported your motorcycle was stolen by a prospective buyer?"
>
> In Los Angeles, the cops would probably tell you that no crime had
> been committed because you gave him permission to ride the motorcycle
> and you should wait about 48 hours before reporting the motorcycle
> stolen.
>
> After all, you did hand the motorcycle over to this person. The cops
> might even ask if you expected them to chase this guy down and shoot
> him when you insist on them finding your bike. They would tell you to
> wait and see if he brought the motorcycle back.
>
> Thieves could strip a motorcycle down to the bare frame in about 2
> hours.
>
> The cops might even ask if the guy who was out riding your motorcycle
> was actually a roommate or a lover, or try to imply that the thief was
> your common law spouse and that your motorcycle was somehow "community
> property".
>
> If somebody steals your motorcycle out of your garage at midnight and
> you report it, the first thing the cops are going to ask is whether
> you were behind on your payments. They would suggest that the
> motorcycle had been repossessed by the finance company.
>
> If you call the cops and report that your motorcycle was stolen off
> the street, they will ask you if you just forgot where you parked it.
>
> The cops just aren't interested in grand theft auto...
>
> There were some lowlife dopers living in a neighbor's basement when I
> lived in Hollyweird. One of them told me that his buddy was driving a
> Mazda RX-7 that he'd stolen. The Mazda was parked right there on the
> street in front of the building.
>
> I took down the license number and called the police department. They
> took down the information and my information and said they'd call be
> back. When they did call back, they said the car was in fact stolen. I
> asked if they were going to come out and impound the car. They said
> that they wanted to catch the guy driving it. I never saw the car
> again, but the doper continued to live in the neighborhood.
>
> Another time I was sportriding in the canyons and found a nice Porsche
> hidden in the woods. It had no engine, it couldn't have been driven
> there. I called the sheriff and the deputy demanded to know why I was
> interested in the matter. I asked him if he didn't find the matter of
> a Porsche with no engine in it hidden in the woods a little bit
> suspicious. He thanked me for being a good citizen and hung up.
>
> Who knows. Maybe the owner of the Porsche just left the car he was
> towing in the woods while he went back to town to buy a six pack of
> beer...
>
>
>
>
Porsche? BEER???
Oh please...you KNOW he just ran out for a nice bottle of Shiraz...
Whatever the hell that is...

--
Barb
Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)

"Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
produce."

--Molly Ivins
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

On Feb 10, 8:11 pm, "Ivan Vegvary" wrote:
> I moved from the Bay Area 3-plus years ago, but, I still consider that
> community to be the most knowledgeable on motorcycles.
>
> By spring this year I hope to have my 1964 BMW R69-S fully restored. I'm
> the original owner and it has 29,000 miles.
>
> I need advice on how to deal with buyers that want to test ride the bike.
> Take a driver's license? Take a deposit? Take their youngest son as a
> deposit?
> What's reasonable and what's safe? The buyer should show proof of collision
> insurance?
>
> Never done this before. All advice greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Ivan Vegvary

Well, it sounds ike you have your answer. Hold the cash and return if
potential buyer rides and is not satisfied. Try not to stereotype
potential buyers by race. Usually a bad idea.

What do think will be the ball park figure for your bike once
restored? I've always loved the look of the 69S and a few years ago I
let a 90S slip through my hands.
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

On Feb 20, 1:29?am, "JDL" wrote:

> Well, it sounds ike you have your answer. Hold the cash and return if
> potential buyer rides and is not satisfied.

What if the "potential buyer" damages the engine, and returns the
motorcycle, claiming that it sounds like there is something
mechanically wrong inside?

Would you give him all his money back and apologize profusely for
wasting his precious time with a motorcycle that wasn't mechanically
perfect and wouldn't give him good service as a daily driver?

This is a *classic* BMW. Wait for a serious collector to call, and
then make him beg you to see the motorcycle, at your convenience. Act
like you really don't want to sell it. Make him think you're doing him
a favor showing it to him.

A serious collector would know that a 1964 R69S is for looking at, not
for riding every day.

> Try not to stereotype
> potential buyers by race. Usually a bad idea.

Try not to be so open minded your brains fall out. Gangs of motorcycle
thieves will
send their best looking, best spoken representative to con you out of
your precious motorcycle.

Harley riders often arrange to meet prospective buyers at some neutral
location so thieves won't know where the Harley is kept at night or
how it is protected.

Rather than go through all the hassle of dealing with yahoos that read
Craig's List or
the Recycler or Cycle Trader, take the BMW to a motorcycle show and
exhibit it, if it's perfect.

Then the machine will be seen by true enthusiasts who are unlikely to
be thieves.
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

"krusty kritter" writes:

> A serious collector would know that a 1964 R69S is for looking at, not
> for riding every day.

Not all vintage bike owners are collectors. Some just like to ride
old bikes. Some ride them a lot. Even as a sole source of
transportation. Check out the archives of the slash2 mailing list
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/slash2/> for the facts to back
up this assertion.

I only put about 2K/year on my R69S, preferring the comfort of a
modern bike for most of my transportation needs.

// marc
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

"krusty kritter" wrote in



> A serious collector would know that a 1964 R69S is for looking at, not
> for riding every day.

are you serious? old airheads are meant to be ridden daily. You can get
replacement parts from Blue Moon, or any of the other resto houses quickly
and easily.

collecting is for suckas Ride'em, don't hide'em

> Then the machine will be seen by true enthusiasts who are unlikely to
> be thieves.

feh. if you want maximum dollar, sell it on eBay.
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice 

Marco S Hyman wrote:
> "krusty kritter" writes:
>
>> A serious collector would know that a 1964 R69S is for looking at, not
>> for riding every day.
>
> Not all vintage bike owners are collectors. Some just like to ride
> old bikes. Some ride them a lot. Even as a sole source of
> transportation. Check out the archives of the slash2 mailing list
> <http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/slash2/> for the facts to back
> up this assertion.
>
> I only put about 2K/year on my R69S, preferring the comfort of a
> modern bike for most of my transportation needs.
>
> // marc

My R65 went "vintage" a few years back when it hit 20 years old.
I am currently having some serious work done on it to ensure that it
will last another 20 years, to the tune of $1300. Rear main seal leak
ate my clutch. Ouch.

That said, I have a belt-driven F650 to buzz around on in the meantime.
It's a nice bike, lots of acceleration, brakes that actually work, but I
miss my big slug. I love that bike, although I really need to take
better care of its health. I wouldn't buy a F650, except as a spare.
It's a lot of fun, reminds me of my Honda NX250 in a lot of ways.

But, my classic Beemer is the shizzle, and I will ride it forever.

--
Barb
Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)

"Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
produce."

--Molly Ivins
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle sales advice