Motorcycle Horsepower Question

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:58:22 -0800 (PST), "tomorrow@erols.com"
<tomorrow.RemoveThis@erols.com> wrote:

>On Jan 11, 5:27 pm, "Krusty Kritter" <albrecht.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 11, 2:17?pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor....RemoveThis@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Why on earth would you or anyone else care what I said 10 years ago?
>>
>> Then why refer to it?
>
>To show that people can grow and change their minds.

I have always said I reserve the right to be smarter today than I was
yesterday.


--
See Ya On The Road

2000 Yamaha Venture Millennium
2004 HD Road King
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle Horsepower Question 

Road Glidin' Don <d.langkd.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 11, 4:08 pm, "." <anoblew....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 11, 2:58?pm, "tomor...@erols.com"
> >
> > > > > Why on earth would you or anyone else care what I said 10 years ago?
> >
> > > > Then why refer to it?
> >
> > > To show that people can grow and change their minds.
> >
> > Oh. I see. I thought it was just your over-weening self-estimate that
> > causes you to list every motorcycle you've ever owned and how much
> > your house is worth, and on and on and on...
>
> Like some people do about their ancestors, you mean.

*Snort*

Love fifteen to RGD.


--
K1100LT 750SS CB400F CD250 SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle Horsepower Question 

Calgary wrote:

> I have always said I reserve the right to be smarter today than I was
> yesterday.

You know Don, some would regard that statement as a fairly
ripe feedline but being the nice gentleman that I am I'm
not going to touch it with the proverbial barge-pole.

--
'01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle Horsepower Question 

On Jan 11, 4:16�pm, "Road Glidin' Don" <d.lan....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 11, 4:08�pm, "." <anoblew....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Oh. I see. I thought it was just your over-weening self-estimate that
> > causes you to list every motorcycle you've ever owned and how much
> > your house is worth, and on and on and on...
>
> Like some people do about their ancestors, you mean.

Well, if I'm going to live vicariously by reading about famous people,
what better men to study than my ancestors, or perhaps humanitarians
like Josef Mengele?
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle Horsepower Question 

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:46:07 -0800 (PST), "???????"
<RhiannonX RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 11, 4:16?pm, "Road Glidin' Don" <d.lan... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 11, 4:08?pm, "." <anoblew... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Oh. I see. I thought it was just your over-weening self-estimate that
>> > causes you to list every motorcycle you've ever owned and how much
>> > your house is worth, and on and on and on...
>>
>> Like some people do about their ancestors, you mean.
>
>Well, if I'm going to live vicariously by reading about famous people,
>what better men to study than my ancestors, or perhaps humanitarians
>like Josef Mengele?

I'm reminded of chihuahuas that are constantly under your feet,
yapping away. I'll bet they're as smart as you, too.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer
 >> Stay informed about: Motorcycle Horsepower Question 

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:10:08 -0900, "Robert Bolton"
<robertboltondrop.RemoveThis@gci.net> wrote:

>
>"Turby" <turbosurfer.RemoveThis@beach.comber> wrote in message
>news:pq8eo3d45laa68blehlf7t6ifml0qjp9oo@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:38:04 -0900, "Robert Bolton"
>> <robertboltondrop.RemoveThis@gci.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I found a reference that said net horsepower was used beginning of 1971
>>>per SAE J1349. The same reference said J1349 was reissued (2004) to
>>>close
>>>some loopholes.
>>>
>>>http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=455579&postcount=1
>>>
>>>Here's an interesting reference -
>>>http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03_6/vc9950.htm
>>>
>>>California seems to require published horsepower to be net hp as defined
>>>by SAE J1349.
>>
>> Net vs gross still refers to the output shaft of the _engine_, not
>> rear wheel, which is where the big difference is, of course.
>>
>> FWIW, I have access to all the SAE specs at work, but I'm off work for
>> a while, so it will be some time before I can post what they say.
>>
>Thanks. I for one would be interested in hearing the highlights of the
>standard.

Yeah, it took a while. Not as long as the Moab pics, so my
procrastinating creds may be slipping.

J1349
Surface Vehicle Standard
Engine Power Test Code -
Spark Ignition & Compression Ignition -
Net Power Rating

The spec is 24 pages long - packed with formulas, tables, and
definitions, besides requirements. The 10 major section headings are:
Scope
References
Terms & definitions
Symbols, units, & subscripts
Reference terst conditions & corrections
Lab & engine equipment
Lab test procedures
Presentation of results
Transient vehicle testing
Notes

There are 3 types of "hp" per the spec:
Bp - Brake power
Fp - Friction power
Ip - Indicated power

Bp (c) = Ip(c) - Fp(o)

Where (c) means corrected to reference inlet air and fuel supply
conditions. I didn't convert the numbers, but I think that means an
"ISO" day - standard temp, humidity, & barometric pressure. And ref.
fuel just means regular, mid or premium octane (R+M)/2 gas.
(o) = data observed at the actual test conditions.

There are a bunch of other formulas for atmosphere correction, fuel
correction, etc.
The equipment on a vehicle is controlled in the sense that test
vehicles are supposed to be equipped as they would normally be in
their intended use. Air cleaners, cooling pumps, emission controls
systems, etc, are all required if they are normally installed in
production vehicles. A transmission is not required, but correction of
engine power for transmission losses is not permitted. (huh? That's
what it says.)
The spec differentiates between steady-state and transient procedures.

The definition of "Net Brake Power and Torque":

"The power and torque produced by an engine at any speed when
configured as a "fully equipped" engine, corrected and tested in
accordance to the applicable procedures contained in this standard."

It talks about dyno testing, but also says the road surface must be a
closed course, with dry, flat, level hard-paved surface. It doesn't
say anything about measurement at the flywheel or rear wheel, and as
usual with bureaucratic specs, seems very ambiguous about a lot of
stuff.

BTW, the latest version is dated March, 2008.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer
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On Mar 29, 10:27 pm, Turby <turbosur... RemoveThis @beach.comber> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:10:08 -0900, "Robert Bolton"
>
>
>
>
>
> <robertboltond... RemoveThis @gci.net> wrote:
>
> >"Turby" <turbosur... RemoveThis @beach.comber> wrote in message
> >news:pq8eo3d45laa68blehlf7t6ifml0qjp9oo@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:38:04 -0900, "Robert Bolton"
> >> <robertboltond... RemoveThis @gci.net> wrote:
>
> >>>I found a reference that said net horsepower was used beginning of 1971
> >>>per SAE J1349.  The same reference said J1349 was reissued (2004) to
> >>>close
> >>>some loopholes.
>
> >>>http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=455579&postcount=1
>
> >>>Here's an interesting reference -
> >>>http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03_6/vc9950.htm
>
> >>>California seems to require published horsepower to be net hp as defined
> >>>by SAE J1349.
>
> >> Net vs gross still refers to the output shaft of the _engine_, not
> >> rear wheel, which is where the big difference is, of course.
>
> >> FWIW, I have access to all the SAE specs at work, but I'm off work for
> >> a while, so it will be some time before I can post what they say.
>
> >Thanks.  I for one would be interested in hearing the highlights of the
> >standard.
>
> Yeah, it took a while. Not as long as the Moab pics, so my
> procrastinating creds may be slipping.
>
> J1349
> Surface Vehicle Standard
> Engine Power Test Code -
> Spark Ignition & Compression Ignition -
> Net Power Rating
>
> The spec is 24 pages long - packed with formulas, tables, and
> definitions, besides requirements. The 10 major section headings are:
> Scope
> References
> Terms & definitions
> Symbols, units, & subscripts
> Reference terst conditions & corrections
> Lab & engine equipment
> Lab test procedures
> Presentation of results
> Transient vehicle testing
> Notes
>
> There are 3 types of "hp" per the spec:
> Bp  - Brake power
> Fp  - Friction power
> Ip  - Indicated power
>
> Bp (c) = Ip(c) - Fp(o)
>
> Where (c) means corrected to reference inlet air and fuel supply
> conditions. I didn't convert the numbers, but I think that means an
> "ISO" day - standard temp, humidity, & barometric pressure. And ref.
> fuel just means regular, mid or premium octane (R+M)/2 gas.
> (o) = data observed at the actual test conditions.
>
> There are a bunch of other formulas for atmosphere correction, fuel
> correction, etc.
> The equipment on a vehicle is controlled in the sense that test
> vehicles are supposed to be equipped as they would normally be in
> their intended use. Air cleaners, cooling pumps, emission controls
> systems, etc, are all required if they are normally installed in
> production vehicles. A transmission is not required, but correction of
> engine power for transmission losses is not permitted. (huh? That's
> what it says.)

Some manufactures like to play games with ratings. I know of some
engines that were under rated so as not to take such a big hit from
the insurance companies. It also got the cars using that engine into
easier stock classes at the drag strip. The manufacture could test at
the flywheel and then deduct some inflated losses to get a lower rated
rear wheel hp. Going the other way testing could be done at the rear
wheels and then inflated losses claimed to arrive at a higher than
reality hp rating at the crank.

> The spec differentiates between steady-state and transient procedures.
>
> The definition of "Net Brake Power and Torque":
>
> "The power and torque produced by an engine at any speed when
> configured as a "fully equipped" engine, corrected and tested in
> accordance to the applicable procedures contained in this standard."
>
> It talks about dyno testing, but also says the road surface must be a
> closed course, with dry, flat, level hard-paved surface. It doesn't
> say anything about measurement at the flywheel or rear wheel, and as
> usual with bureaucratic specs, seems very ambiguous about a lot of
> stuff.
>
> BTW, the latest version is dated March, 2008.
>

Strange. By definition a "brake" hp is measured on a dyno that has a
"brake" to hold the engine at a steady rpm. The torque can be read
directly off the stationary part of the brake. It can be measured at
the crank or at the rear wheels on a chassis dyno. Not sure what the
road would have to do with it unless they are allowing them to
calculate hp based on vehicle weight and acceleration. The dynos most
often used to test bikes are inertia dynos, not brake dynos. The
power is calculated based on how quickly the engine accelerates a
heavy drum. The ratings for the two types of dynos will be
different. Two engines could have identical output on a brake dyno
but would have different outputs from each other on the inertia dyno
if they have different amounts of rotating mass in the engine and/or
drivetrain.

Bruce
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"Turby" <turbosurfer.TakeThisOut@beach.comber> wrote in message
news:gkttu3di3lbcnkcrkq0dvekr1ohtu2c8uj@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:10:08 -0900, "Robert Bolton"
.....

>>Thanks. I for one would be interested in hearing the highlights of the
>>standard.
>
> Yeah, it took a while. Not as long as the Moab pics, so my
> procrastinating creds may be slipping.
>
.....
>
> There are 3 types of "hp" per the spec:
> Bp - Brake power
> Fp - Friction power
> Ip - Indicated power
>
> Bp (c) = Ip(c) - Fp(o)
>
> Where (c) means corrected to reference inlet air and fuel supply
> conditions. I didn't convert the numbers, but I think that means an
> "ISO" day - standard temp, humidity, & barometric pressure. And ref.
> fuel just means regular, mid or premium octane (R+M)/2 gas.
> (o) = data observed at the actual test conditions.
>
> There are a bunch of other formulas for atmosphere correction, fuel
> correction, etc.
> The equipment on a vehicle is controlled in the sense that test
> vehicles are supposed to be equipped as they would normally be in
> their intended use. Air cleaners, cooling pumps, emission controls
> systems, etc, are all required if they are normally installed in
> production vehicles. A transmission is not required, but correction of
> engine power for transmission losses is not permitted. (huh? That's
> what it says.)
> The spec differentiates between steady-state and transient procedures.
>
> The definition of "Net Brake Power and Torque":
>
> "The power and torque produced by an engine at any speed when
> configured as a "fully equipped" engine, corrected and tested in
> accordance to the applicable procedures contained in this standard."
>
> It talks about dyno testing, but also says the road surface must be a
> closed course, with dry, flat, level hard-paved surface. It doesn't
> say anything about measurement at the flywheel or rear wheel, and as
> usual with bureaucratic specs, seems very ambiguous about a lot of
> stuff.
>
Thanks for digging it up. I hadn't thought about it till just this
moment, but I should check our libraries or UofA to see if I could get
lucky. One item of interest is the engine has to have all accessories
operating. That might not mean much with a motorcycle, but it sure does
with a fully laden auto.

Robert
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