Down in Monterey...(Spoila')

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:03:53 -0700, Mark N
<menusbaum DeleteThis @NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:

>Who knows who's really ready and who isn't, but I still say there should
>be age limitations placed on the GP classes, and the first one should be
>no one on the track who isn't at least 18 (old enough to drink legally
>in a pub, okay?), and 21 for MotoGP. That applies to anyone, of course.
>I think there are a lot of good reasons for doing this, and would have
>positive impacts on the riders, the series, and other series as well.

As in an earlier thread, I'm no fan of 14 or 15 year olds on the grid.
And 16 seems pretty young too.

So, ok - you got me - I subscribe to your minimum age limits proposal.
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Champ
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On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:10:25 GMT, Julian Bond
<julian_bond.RemoveThis@voidstar.com> wrote:

>Champ <news.RemoveThis@champ.org.uk> Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:42:42
>>As in an earlier thread, I'm no fan of 14 or 15 year olds on the grid.
>>And 16 seems pretty young too.
>>
>>So, ok - you got me - I subscribe to your minimum age limits proposal.
>
>So does that apply to National SB as well then? Is 20 too young to be
>racing SB? How about Supersports or Superstock? Because in some ways
>(notwithstanding last week's daftness), those classes are more dangerous
>and filled with more idiots than MotoGP.

I think it's an aspiration, rather than something that can really be
achieved.

I know that plenty of sports are dominated by teenages (gymnastics,
swimming), but while these sports can steal their childhood [1], they
rarely steal their health or life. The problem is that to be a
*rally* good bike racer, you probably *do* have to start before the
age of 10 on dirt bikes. And, if you do that, you may well be ready
for national or international competition in your teens.

[1] teenage swimmers train for 3+ hours a day
--
Champ
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Champ <news RemoveThis @champ.org.uk> Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:42:42
>As in an earlier thread, I'm no fan of 14 or 15 year olds on the grid.
>And 16 seems pretty young too.
>
>So, ok - you got me - I subscribe to your minimum age limits proposal.

So does that apply to National SB as well then? Is 20 too young to be
racing SB? How about Supersports or Superstock? Because in some ways
(notwithstanding last week's daftness), those classes are more dangerous
and filled with more idiots than MotoGP.

--
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> As in an earlier thread, I'm no fan of 14 or 15 year olds on the grid.
> And 16 seems pretty young too.

I'd subscribe to that when it comes to the major leagues. Not when it comes
to 125cc. And perhaps not when it comes to 250cc when it comes to great
talent.

As someone else said, whatever - isn't freddie Spencer still the age record
that stands since the 80s? Is his record to be artificially preserved, and
why?

I thin the graduation from class to class should depend on a mix of age and
*accomplishment*. If some once in a millenium talent wins 125ccand 250cc
titles at the age of 12, heck, bring them on.
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pablo wrote:
>> As in an earlier thread, I'm no fan of 14 or 15 year olds on the grid.
>> And 16 seems pretty young too.
>
> I'd subscribe to that when it comes to the major leagues. Not when it comes
> to 125cc. And perhaps not when it comes to 250cc when it comes to great
> talent.

Huh? So the rule will have an exception for "great talent"?

> As someone else said, whatever - isn't freddie Spencer still the age record
> that stands since the 80s? Is his record to be artificially preserved, and
> why?

So we just can't have this rule because it will mean Spencer will hold
some stupid age-related "record" forever? Would you feel better about it
once some Spaniard erases that record?

> I thin the graduation from class to class should depend on a mix of age and
> *accomplishment*. If some once in a millenium talent wins 125ccand 250cc
> titles at the age of 12, heck, bring them on.

And what is the measure of "talent"? Is it "accomplishment", at least in
part? I can understand how that would work for you, since the system
inside GP massively favors EuroMeds and they get the best equipment, so
really are the only ones who have a realistic shot at tangible
"accomplishment". As Julian says, there are only so many good factory
bikes, and rider selection for those is hardly based on "talent" alone.
As an example, Elias had seven wins and always finished in the top four
in his three years in 250, but West never finished higher than seventh
and has only one race win. So is Elias clearly more talented than Westy,
or does he just have a superior passport? De Puniet had five 250 wins
and lots of podiums, and doesn't look a lot better than West on the same
bike today, and he's had plenty of time to get acclimated on it. And
then how do you measure "talent" and "Accomplishment" for riders outside
the GP support class structure, are they by definition not "talented" or
"accomplished" enough to get in before hitting the age threshold?
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"Mark N" <menusbaum.RemoveThis@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:crSdnUk09IsZyjbbnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> I'd subscribe to that when it comes to the major leagues. Not when it
>> comes to 125cc. And perhaps not when it comes to 250cc when it comes to
>> great talent.
>
> Huh? So the rule will have an exception for "great talent"?

Absolutely, as long as it's "great Spanish talent.."
>
>> As someone else said, whatever - isn't freddie Spencer still the age
>> record that stands since the 80s? Is his record to be artificially
>> preserved, and why?
>
> So we just can't have this rule because it will mean Spencer will hold
> some stupid age-related "record" forever? Would you feel better about it
> once some Spaniard erases that record?

Wow! Was that revealing, or what?
>
>> I thin the graduation from class to class should depend on a mix of age
>> and *accomplishment*. If some once in a millenium talent wins 125ccand
>> 250cc titles at the age of 12, heck, bring them on.
>
> And what is the measure of "talent"? Is it "accomplishment", at least in
> part? I can understand how that would work for you, since the system
> inside GP massively favors EuroMeds and they get the best equipment, so
> really are the only ones who have a realistic shot at tangible
> "accomplishment". As Julian says, there are only so many good factory
> bikes, and rider selection for those is hardly based on "talent" alone. As
> an example, Elias had seven wins and always finished in the top four in
> his three years in 250, but West never finished higher than seventh and
> has only one race win. So is Elias clearly more talented than Westy, or
> does he just have a superior passport? De Puniet had five 250 wins and
> lots of podiums, and doesn't look a lot better than West on the same bike
> today, and he's had plenty of time to get acclimated on it. And then how
> do you measure "talent" and "Accomplishment" for riders outside the GP
> support class structure, are they by definition not "talented" or
> "accomplished" enough to get in before hitting the age threshold?

Sure, In Pablum's universe a 250GP win is worth at least an AMA title and
prolly 3 BSB one's...
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Julian Bond wrote:
> T3
>> Sure, In Pablum's universe a 250GP win is worth at least an AMA title
>> and
>> prolly 3 BSB one's...
>
> Wow. There's a lot of mileage in that one!
>
> I'd put a 250GP championship at roughly equal a national (AMA, BSB) SB
> championship and a little behind an SBK championship.
>
> Ok. So try putting single wins in order. It gets incredibly hard because
> so much depends on the level of competition in any particular year. Was
> it harder to beat Pedrosa in his 2nd 250Gp year, than Lorenzo in this
> year than Mladin 2 years ago?

Harder for whom? Pedrosa had a weight advantage on a 250 under their
rules that would make him almost unbeatable for anyone over about
140-145 pounds, I'd guess - throw Rossi on a Honda 250 with the same
tires and he'd struggle some, I'll bet. Now put Pedrosa on a SB and
throw him into AMA SB and the picture changes - radically, I suspect...

In 2004 the guys who beat Pedrosa to win races were Porto, de Puniet,
Aoyama, and Stoner. Stoner's obviously quite talented, but he was only
19 then, and there has to be some question about the talent of the other
three, de Puniet flunking out of MotoGP now (even with bikes that
Roberts says match his style perfectly), Porto retired, Aoyama still
struggling some in 250. Mladin won most of the races in 2005, with the
others going to Bostrom, Spies, Yates, Hodgson; Spies was an upcoming
young guy but the others experienced guys assumedly in their prime. This
year Lorenzo has lost races to Dovisioso, Bautista, Aoyama. Hard to say
much about them, since they are all so young (21, 22, 25) and of a
weight/size that doesn't put them at a disadvantage against the Rat (all
55kg or less).

I think the current age/size/bike situation in 250 makes it almost
impossible to evaluate in conventional terms. But even your man Alberto
"the Lunatic" Puig says 250 isn't what it used to be.
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond RemoveThis @voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:w2FBco4nw3qGFA33@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
> T3 <nothere RemoveThis @nowhere.net> Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:44:19
>>Sure, In Pablum's universe a 250GP win is worth at least an AMA title and
>>prolly 3 BSB one's...
>
> Wow. There's a lot of mileage in that one!

Jus' being a little facetious Mr. Bond..

>
> I'd put a 250GP championship at roughly equal a national (AMA, BSB) SB
> championship and a little behind an SBK championship.

I'm a little uncomfortable including SBK, but understand you see that a
little differently..

>
> Ok. So try putting single wins in order. It gets incredibly hard because
> so much depends on the level of competition in any particular year. Was it
> harder to beat Pedrosa in his 2nd 250Gp year, than Lorenzo in this year
> than Mladin 2 years ago?

Don't really know about the ring-dings, but IIRC 2 years ago Mat was pretty
much alone on top of the AMA heap, last year he slacked a little and got
barely beat, this year he's pretty much done unless something "unfortunate"
happens to Spies...
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T3 <nothere DeleteThis @nowhere.net> Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:44:19
>Sure, In Pablum's universe a 250GP win is worth at least an AMA title and
>prolly 3 BSB one's...

Wow. There's a lot of mileage in that one!

I'd put a 250GP championship at roughly equal a national (AMA, BSB) SB
championship and a little behind an SBK championship.

Ok. So try putting single wins in order. It gets incredibly hard because
so much depends on the level of competition in any particular year. Was
it harder to beat Pedrosa in his 2nd 250Gp year, than Lorenzo in this
year than Mladin 2 years ago?

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Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
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