Down in Monterey...(Spoila')

T3 <nothere RemoveThis @nowhere.net> Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:36:21
>Perhaps I should have written the do, or you're gone "anglo" reality of
>MGP...

I'm sorry. Is that English?

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Dave wrote:
> "T3" wrote:
>> "Julian Bond" wrote
>>> Err why? He's already done 2.5 years in 250GP and 1 in 125GP along with
>>> riding in the Spanish and UK 125GP championships. So he's well used to
>>> "all that insanity".

>> The kid just turned what, 21? As far as 250GP goes, what did he do there?
>> Hopefully more than here so far and no, I'm not putting the "lad" down, I'm
>> just saying he needs to actually win something before he's dropped in the
>> deep in of the MGP pool
>
> Win something first. You mean like Roger? Oh wait, Rog hasn't
> actually won anything yet, has he? A small handful of supersport
> races with no title doesn't count for much. He hasn't been able to
> top his brother over the past few years and he hasn't even come close
> to matching the achievements of either brother at this point in his
> life. And yet your convinced that he's more ready for MGP insanity
> than the kid who's already been there over three years?
>
> I'm not so sure Chaz will develop into a top MGP rider, but he has the
> more relevent background than Rog at this point, at least on paper as
> far as the powers that be are concerned. As for winning in SS first,
> remember he is on a privateer bike and when's the last time one of
> them won?

That's only half right, that team runs last year's Yamaha factory bikes,
and it's a pretty good team with what looks like some real resources. So
he's not exactly your average privateer.

> Personally I think there are probably better rider options out there
> than either of those two at the moment and RLH getting a GP ride would
> be quite unjustified at this point.
>
> I actually do think he did well at Laguna though.

Yes, he did a very respectable job, but I agree that he's not exactly
deserving, and I doubt he'll get that ride.

So who is, what are the better options? To me the guys who are in and
clearly deserve to be in GP, who can seriously race at that level if not
win championships, but could win races if the circumstances are right
(realistically) and can race with adequate consistency, are: Rossi,
Hayden, Stoner, Pedrosa, Melandri, Hopkins, Vermeulen, Nakano,
Capirossi, Roberts, Edwards. The guy who I have considered the baseline
for a MotoGP rider is Checa, and I'd rate Barros at about that level as
well. I think Tamada falls below that, and Elias is somewhere in that
range, sort of a young Checa - he could have top rides for the next
decade but I doubt he'd ever be in a championship fight. Capirossi,
Edwards, Roberts, Barros and Checa are near the end, but they all may be
back next year. Then there are the guys who I don't think really deserve
to be there, but have opportunities created by circumstances, passports,
sponsors, etc. - de Puniet, Hofmann, Guintoli, West, Kurtis R. MotoGP
always seems to have a handful of these guys. That's not to say that
West and Roberts couldn't prove to be worthy, or that de Puniet doesn't
deserve even a marginal ride (maybe with Tech3 on Dunlops?), but they
haven't exactly earned the seats they have.

Right now we have the following current guys contracted for next year:
Rossi at Fiat Yamaha, Hayden at Repsol Honda, Stoner and Melandri at
Marlboro Ducati, Hopkins at Kawasaki, Vermeulen at Suzuki, and I believe
Nakano at Konica-Minolta Honda. One has to assume Pedrosa will be back
at Repsol, and it's quite likely that Capirossi will end up at Suzuki,
or perhaps Kawasaki. Elias may get the seat Loris doesn't, or he'll
likely end up back at Gresini. So that's ten guys. Edwards is on the
bubble, probably dependent on the whims of Rossi as much as anything
else. If Team Roberts is back, one would assume one of the Robertses
will do the riding. The first new guy confirmed is Lorenzo, somewhere in
the Yamaha mix and apparently a new team sponsored by Fortuna.

So we're left with perhaps one factory seat (Kawasaki or Suzuki), plus
Gresini, D'Antin, Tech3, Cecchinello, possibly Aspar, maybe eight total
open rides. Those seats have traditionally been heavily influenced by
sponsors or Dorna's passport balancing. Regarding the former, Gresini
might lose Hannspree (his 3rd sponsor in as many years) and Tech3 is
tied to Dunlop now. Regarding that latter, Hofmann may get more life as
the designated German, de Puniet the designated Frenchman, and a Brit is
needed in the worst way. That Brit looks like Toseland, unless Honda
manages to get him to buy the line that Vermeulen didn't (to his
everlasting gratitude). The options beyond that are limited, and include
Laguna wildcards Davies and Hodgson, I suppose. But I think there will
be one.

So maybe five seats left, and you have to figure that some of the old
guys will be back. Now who do you look to? Everyone is in love with 250,
since these guys are already there and the current 800s seem to be
well-matched with their abilities and assets. But how good are these
guys? Lorenzo will be a two-time champion and hase certainly won a lot
of races, but what's his competition? If this wasn't a promotional step
to MotoGP, guys like Nakano, Jacque, Melandri, Pedrosa, Stoner, de
Puniet, Elias would all still be there, and that doesn't include any of
the guys from the '90s still racing - would Lorenzo be winning against
them? I really doubt it. Instead, as Julian said, 250 has maybe a half
dozen competitive bikes, those almost always go to JIS riders, and at
the moment none of them is over 25 years old (not to mention over 55kg)
- that's the top seven riders in the championship, who have all of the
podiums so far this year. So what makes them particularly deserving? The
championship record of 250 champions in the premier class is abysmal in
the longer run (one guy in 35 years), and it seems 250 guys rarely
improve markedly over their early impressions - by year two you know
what they'll be. But the bikes ARE right for them now.

Then there's WSB, and once you get past Toseland it's mostly older guys,
and pretty much guys who have had some kind of shot in GP in the past.
So that's pretty much bare. BSB hasn't really developed anyone who's
young, promising and adequately proven, I don't think. JSB has'nt
produced a young guy who's gone out into the world since Kiyonari, maybe
the best product of both those national series. But he'll only get in if
Honda makes it happen, as they did in 2003. Australia seems to only
produce young guys destined to work their way up elsewhere, and
otherwise the best guy appears to be Stauffer, who raced here in '03.

Which leaves the AMA, and the one guy who I think is clearly,
unquestionably deserving - Spies. He's won, heading toward his second SB
championship and now tied with Hayden for fourth on the all-time SB win
list, he's experienced and mature but still very young at 22, he's fast
and consistent, he's beaten most of the veterans who have been at the
front in the AMA for the last decade or more. His liabilities are that
he hasn't raced abroad and that he's (gasp!) a normal-sized human being.
He may not have raced 250s, but he also isn't a dirttracker recently
adopting to roadracing. Roger Lee is probably next, as DiSalvo has
proven to be a real disappointment the last couple years. The previously
most deserving guy to me, E-Boz, has gone off-track too much and will
turn 31 later this year. And Tommy Hayden is really struggling this
year.

So it doesn't really seem like there are a bunch of guys with obvious
talent, sufficient youth and also a winning record right now. Maybe that
means West deserves a very hard look, and that guys like RL and Davies
more than a glance. There might end up being spots for maybe 2 or 3 more
new guys, and I don't know how far down the list they'd be. Again, so
much depends on the whims of the lease team managers and their sponsors
and what Dorna wants to do with the mix. So RL may have a possible shot
at Kawasaki (if they don't want de Puniet, can't get any targeted
current MotoGP guys, and aren't all that impressed with what's in 250)
but nowhere else, and Davies might get a Dorna-supported ride with
someone like D'Antin or Poncharal.
 >> Stay informed about: Down in Monterey...(Spoila') 

"Dave" <no1 RemoveThis @home.com> wrote in message
news:rhtfa3t259jafri6k1rerpt5d4jduvr85m@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:48:47 -0400, "T3" <nothere RemoveThis @nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Julian Bond" <julian_bond RemoveThis @voidstar.com> wrote in message
>>news:heVFWUUpu0pGFAfO@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
>>> T3 <nothere RemoveThis @nowhere.net> Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:46:38
>>>>Really? See, we didn't get any of that, or at least I didn't notice it
>>>>if
>>>>we
>>>>did, that said, I think it might be a little premature to throw Chas
>>>>into
>>>>the MGP fray. I know you guys want a homey to pull for and God knows,
>>>>it's
>>>>waay past time, but give the kid a chance to "age" a little before he's
>>>>tossed in the middle of all that insanity..
>>>
>>> Err why? He's already done 2.5 years in 250GP and 1 in 125GP along with
>>> riding in the Spanish and UK 125GP championships. So he's well used to
>>> "all that insanity".
>>
>> The kid just turned what, 21? As far as 250GP goes, what did he do there?
>>Hopefully more than here so far and no, I'm not putting the "lad" down,
>>I'm
>>just saying he needs to actually win something before he's dropped in the
>>deep in of the MGP pool
>
> Win something first. You mean like Roger? Oh wait, Rog hasn't
> actually won anything yet, has he? A small handful of supersport
> races with no title doesn't count for much. He hasn't been able to
> top his brother over the past few years and he hasn't even come close
> to matching the achievements of either brother at this point in his
> life. And yet your convinced that he's more ready for MGP insanity
> than the kid who's already been there over three years?


Where did I say I was "convinced" about anything other than SSport being a
good place for
Chas to hone his 4 stroke skillz? If you read the thread, my retort to Mr.
Bond's thought that is was the worst avenue to MGP was when I brought up the
series leader and contrary to what Mark thinks, I do believe Kaw is
seriously considering him for next year. You don't see OEM's flying guys to
Nipland to test just for fun, but if you'd like me to say RL's a better and
more deserving rider than Chas at this point, I will. The kid needs to do
something before jumping in the middle of MGP and he's never gonna do that
unless he stays a while in one place. Evidently, he thought coming here was
his best shot at a MGP career, but unless he actually does something first
I'd find it hard to fathom his MGP life will be anything other than short..

>
> I'm not so sure Chaz will develop into a top MGP rider, but he has the
> more relevent background than Rog at this point, at least on paper as
> far as the powers that be are concerned. As for winning in SS first,
> remember he is on a privateer bike and when's the last time one of
> them won?

He's relevant because of his passport, not because of accomplishments and I
am "convinced" that dropping someone (especially an anglo) into MGP before
they're ready just to up they gate is not in the best long term interest's
of the rider.
Now, addressing your quip that Celtic racing is at a disadvantage in SSport,
bottom line, they are not! Celtic racing has been around for a while and
just by Chas's Qtimes show they're competent and that he's quick, his
problems really only become apparent when the green flag is dropped. I have
done my best to watch the kid both on and off the track this year and yes,
he's personable and a little outspoken like Hodgy, but when it comes
racetime he's been handled pretty easily, if not roughly. I believe it would
be in his long term best interest to have something, even if it's just a few
W's and not a title, in his pocket before attempting a MGP career, but
that's just me, I'm sure there are others that feel differently..

>
> Personally I think there are probably better rider options out there
> than either of those two at the moment and RLH getting a GP ride would
> be quite unjustified at this point.

There may very well be, but how many of those guys hold Limey passports and
how many other USAin's has Kaw nurtured, but beyond the obvious Spies, who
else is there?

>
> I actually do think he did well at Laguna though.
>

Beating Barros would've made the weekend a hell of a lot stronger, but yeah,
he aquitted himself pretty well, not to mention he didn't break anything...
 >> Stay informed about: Down in Monterey...(Spoila') 

T3 wrote:
> "Dave" wrote
>> Win something first. You mean like Roger? Oh wait, Rog hasn't
>> actually won anything yet, has he? A small handful of supersport
>> races with no title doesn't count for much. He hasn't been able to
>> top his brother over the past few years and he hasn't even come close
>> to matching the achievements of either brother at this point in his
>> life. And yet your convinced that he's more ready for MGP insanity
>> than the kid who's already been there over three years?
>
> Where did I say I was "convinced" about anything other than SSport being a
> good place for
> Chas to hone his 4 stroke skillz? If you read the thread, my retort to Mr.
> Bond's thought that is was the worst avenue to MGP was when I brought up the
> series leader and contrary to what Mark thinks, I do believe Kaw is
> seriously considering him for next year. You don't see OEM's flying guys to
> Nipland to test just for fun,

I think you have that a bit wrong there, I do think they're considering
him. But as for his test and wildcard race, they apparently wanted to do
the same thing with Tommy last year, and I think in large part as a
promotional opportunity in front to the fans in America. Testing the
bike before the race is more a function of having a guy already
employed, you can't do a wildcard tryout with someone already employed
by another factory, and having the guy acclimated increases the chances
he can be somewhat competitive in the race, and his presence there is
what's really unusual - how many true wildcards have we seen in MotoGP?
The test cost very little, but running a third bike in America much more.

Regarding next year, I think Kawi must be considering a number of guys.
They are making statements about getting truly serious about MotoGP next
year, and both Hopper moving there and Kawi's willingness to pay him $5M
backstops that. That might mean they're just as serious about the second
saddle, and may not want to commit to a guy needing a couple years to
learn the tracks and get up to speed. Or they may want a guy who can
help pay for it all, who can drag in a (Spanish?) sponsor. Maybe
consideration of Rog has to do with a Monster tie-in, which is likely to
be the only reason they'd go with two American riders.

but if you'd like me to say RL's a better and
> more deserving rider than Chas at this point, I will. The kid needs to do
> something before jumping in the middle of MGP and he's never gonna do that
> unless he stays a while in one place. Evidently, he thought coming here was
> his best shot at a MGP career, but unless he actually does something first
> I'd find it hard to fathom his MGP life will be anything other than short..

Davies coming over here may not have anything to do with getting to
MotoGP, it may be just his decision about having a viable career in bike
racing, meaning making a real living. I really doubt that he thinks it's
the place to get noticed by the people in GP. Here's a conmment made by
Harold Bartol of KTM earlier this year, relative to the switch to
production four stroke motors in the support classes: "I know that Honda
wants this, but they should show me one good 600 rider who is doing good
in MotoGP. Everybody who is doing good is comes from the small classes
where they learn their racing education". Now, aside from simply being
wrong about that (has he never heard of Hopkins or Vermeulen?), I think
that reveals a general European bias in GP, truly believing anyone
outside their world isn't worth consideration. How many times do you
think anyone from one of the lease teams or even the factory teams have
gotten on a plane to go scout an racer at an AMA race? Maybe never?

>> I'm not so sure Chaz will develop into a top MGP rider, but he has the
>> more relevent background than Rog at this point, at least on paper as
>> far as the powers that be are concerned.

Right.

> He's relevant because of his passport, not because of accomplishments and I
> am "convinced" that dropping someone (especially an anglo) into MGP before
> they're ready just to up they gate is not in the best long term interest's
> of the rider.

They do that all the time now. Was Pedrosa really ready last year, or
Stoner? How about Lorenzo next year? The feeling these days seems to be
you have to get guys in early, before they're "polluted" by riding other
classes of machinery. I think that's wrong and a bad trend, but there it
is.

> There may very well be, but how many of those guys hold Limey passports and
> how many other USAin's has Kaw nurtured, but beyond the obvious Spies, who
> else is there?

AMA teams have nurtured lots of young guys, but the real step has been
letting them fly the coop and move to Europe. And that just hasn't
happened - look at Bostrom with Kawi, Hayden with Honda, we don't know
Spies is going anywhere, etc. Is the last guy actually Edwards with
Yamaha? I wouldn't overrate this wildcard ride. If Kawi is truly serious
about Rog we will see him do other wildcard rides this year, on the road
on tracks he doesn't know. Japan on the weekend after the Laguna final
looks like the most likely date (no need to ship equipment, tradition of
wildcards there, first non-conflict date), and there are three GPs after
that. Rog's only issue about those late races is that it forces him to
either wait to sign a contract with anyone for next year or sign with
Kawi in any case. But what if, say, American Honda offers him a deal and
won't wait?
 >> Stay informed about: Down in Monterey...(Spoila') 

"Julian Bond" <julian_bond DeleteThis @voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:Xa3I3MluOMqGFAAN@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
> T3 <nothere DeleteThis @nowhere.net> Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:43:32
>>The kid needs to do
>>something before jumping in the middle of MGP and he's never gonna do that
>>unless he stays a while in one place.
>
> And we keep trying to tell you that he's been racing in 250GP. And the
> only reason he's in the AMA is because in 250GP the teams running 6th
> position and down don't have competitive machinery. It's exactly the same
> problem Anthony West had and has. They may well be very good GP racers but
> there's no way to know because it's impossible for them to get a ride with
> Repsol Honda, or the factory Aprilia rides. And without that they'll
> always be 1,2,3 seconds off the pace.

And I asked you what he'd done there? Your lack of response made me think
not too much...
>
>>Evidently, he thought coming here was
>>his best shot at a MGP career,
>
> Not at all. I don't think before last weekend Chaz had even thought of
> racing in MotoGP. He came to AMA because it was the only way to resurrect
> his career. The previous year he'd had to pack his bags half way though
> because the 250GP team he was riding for ran out of money. What do you do
> when you can't get a ride? Go back 2 months. Do you think West went to WSS
> to try and get into MotoGP? I reckon he went because he's a racer and he
> wanted to race.


Ok, resurrect is good, but evidently he didn't forget about GP completely...

>
> Whatever. I do kind of agree with you that you have to show some ability,
> some how. Maybe that's a national support championship. Maybe it's to
> prove you can ride and fit in when the opportunity falls in your lap. On
> that basis, Chaz and RHL proved they can ride a MotoGP bike and fit in.
> RHL did it by being close to the other Kawa riders and coming in 10th.
> Chaz did it by coping with being dropped into a ludicrous situation,
> getting a fastest lap within one second of Hopkins and chopping 3seconds
> off his lap time between the end of FP2 and the end of the race.

The jury's out on Rog, sure, he can ride 'Guna, but the real test may come
later this year. My take on Davies was actually better than Rog, after all
he hadn't even seen that bike until they told him to ride...
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"Mark N" <menusbaum.DeleteThis@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:FeqdncoxJMMBLjXbnZ2dnUVZ_hisnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Regarding next year, I think Kawi must be considering a number of guys.
> They are making statements about getting truly serious about MotoGP next
> year, and both Hopper moving there and Kawi's willingness to pay him $5M
> backstops that. That might mean they're just as serious about the second
> saddle, and may not want to commit to a guy needing a couple years to
> learn the tracks and get up to speed. Or they may want a guy who can help
> pay for it all, who can drag in a (Spanish?) sponsor. Maybe consideration
> of Rog has to do with a Monster tie-in, which is likely to be the only
> reason they'd go with two American riders.

Heh, if they threw down the kind of bucks I heard they did for Hoppy they
must be serious about somethin'!
> They do that all the time now. Was Pedrosa really ready last year, or
> Stoner? How about Lorenzo next year? The feeling these days seems to be
> you have to get guys in early, before they're "polluted" by riding other
> classes of machinery. I think that's wrong and a bad trend, but there it
> is.

Of that, we are in total agreement!
>
>> There may very well be, but how many of those guys hold Limey passports
>> and how many other USAin's has Kaw nurtured, but beyond the obvious
>> Spies, who else is there?
>
> AMA teams have nurtured lots of young guys, but the real step has been
> letting them fly the coop and move to Europe. And that just hasn't
> happened - look at Bostrom with Kawi, Hayden with Honda, we don't know
> Spies is going anywhere, etc. Is the last guy actually Edwards with
> Yamaha? I wouldn't overrate this wildcard ride. If Kawi is truly serious
> about Rog we will see him do other wildcard rides this year, on the road
> on tracks he doesn't know. Japan on the weekend after the Laguna final
> looks like the most likely date (no need to ship equipment, tradition of
> wildcards there, first non-conflict date), and there are three GPs after
> that. Rog's only issue about those late races is that it forces him to
> either wait to sign a contract with anyone for next year or sign with Kawi
> in any case. But what if, say, American Honda offers him a deal and won't
> wait?

Heh, after what HRC did to Nicky I kinda doubt ole Earl would go for it, but
who knows?
 >> Stay informed about: Down in Monterey...(Spoila') 

Champ wrote:
> Mark N wrote:
> >> He's relevant because of his passport, not because of accomplishments and I
> >> am "convinced" that dropping someone (especially an anglo) into MGP before
> >> they're ready just to up they gate is not in the best long term interest's
> >> of the rider.
>
> >They do that all the time now. Was Pedrosa really ready last year, or
> >Stoner?
>
> No question that Pedrosa was ready last year - he'd won the 250
> championship twice, and won MotoGP races in his first season. What
> else was he going to do?

Grow up? He also took out his teammate and nearly ruined his
championship run, crashed in races a couple other times, and made some
very questionable moves a few other times. No doubt he's good, but is
anyone truly ready for MotoGP at 20? As for 250, yes, he wasn't really
going to learn much more there, because he was racing a bunch of kids
like himself. If it wasn't viewed just as an assembly line for EuroMed
MotoGP riders, good bikes went to more experienced guys and they
didn't ship the top guys up to MotoGP before they're old enough to
drink legally, then maybe guys who are only 19 or 20 could learn a bit
more before making the move. As I've said before, I think riders
should be required to be at least 21 before the start of the year in
order to be eligible for MotoGP. I think some of the problems on the
track (and off) in MotoGP arise out of riders who enter GP as
teenagers and move up to the top shortly thereafter, without enough
maturity but plenty of overinflated ego and adolescent bravado. I
don't equate not being ready with not capable of winning.

Just my opinion, of course...
 >> Stay informed about: Down in Monterey...(Spoila') 

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:46:17 -0700, Mark N
<menusbaum.DeleteThis@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:

>> He's relevant because of his passport, not because of accomplishments and I
>> am "convinced" that dropping someone (especially an anglo) into MGP before
>> they're ready just to up they gate is not in the best long term interest's
>> of the rider.
>
>They do that all the time now. Was Pedrosa really ready last year, or
>Stoner?

No question that Pedrosa was ready last year - he'd won the 250
championship twice, and won MotoGP races in his first season. What
else was he going to do?
--
Champ
 >> Stay informed about: Down in Monterey...(Spoila') 

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:42:38 -0700, Mark N <menusbaum.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Champ wrote:
>> Mark N wrote:
>> >> He's relevant because of his passport, not because of accomplishments and I
>> >> am "convinced" that dropping someone (especially an anglo) into MGP before
>> >> they're ready just to up they gate is not in the best long term interest's
>> >> of the rider.
>>
>> >They do that all the time now. Was Pedrosa really ready last year, or
>> >Stoner?
>>
>> No question that Pedrosa was ready last year - he'd won the 250
>> championship twice, and won MotoGP races in his first season. What
>> else was he going to do?
>
>Grow up? He also took out his teammate and nearly ruined his
>championship run, crashed in races a couple other times, and made some
>very questionable moves a few other times. No doubt he's good, but is
>anyone truly ready for MotoGP at 20? As for 250, yes, he wasn't really
>going to learn much more there, because he was racing a bunch of kids
>like himself. If it wasn't viewed just as an assembly line for EuroMed
>MotoGP riders, good bikes went to more experienced guys and they
>didn't ship the top guys up to MotoGP before they're old enough to
>drink legally

Just for your info, you can drink legally at 18 in the UK. And that's
in bars - there's no age limit if at home or on private property

> then maybe guys who are only 19 or 20 could learn a bit
>more before making the move. As I've said before, I think riders
>should be required to be at least 21 before the start of the year in
>order to be eligible for MotoGP. I think some of the problems on the
>track (and off) in MotoGP arise out of riders who enter GP as
>teenagers and move up to the top shortly thereafter, without enough
>maturity but plenty of overinflated ego and adolescent bravado. I
>don't equate not being ready with not capable of winning.

Was Freddie Spencer not ready? He first went to GPs at 19, was full
time at 20 and won the championship when 21.
--
Champ
 >> Stay informed about: Down in Monterey...(Spoila') 

Champ wrote:
> Mark N wrote:
>> then maybe guys who are only 19 or 20 could learn a bit
>> more before making the move. As I've said before, I think riders
>> should be required to be at least 21 before the start of the year in
>> order to be eligible for MotoGP. I think some of the problems on the
>> track (and off) in MotoGP arise out of riders who enter GP as
>> teenagers and move up to the top shortly thereafter, without enough
>> maturity but plenty of overinflated ego and adolescent bravado. I
>> don't equate not being ready with not capable of winning.

> Was Freddie Spencer not ready? He first went to GPs at 19, was full
> time at 20 and won the championship when 21.

And didn't he win that championship by running Roberts off the track on
the last lap of the penultimate round in Sweden? Isn't this the incident
that gets thrown back at me when I talk about the Euro 250-style of passing?

Who knows who's really ready and who isn't, but I still say there should
be age limitations placed on the GP classes, and the first one should be
no one on the track who isn't at least 18 (old enough to drink legally
in a pub, okay?), and 21 for MotoGP. That applies to anyone, of course.
I think there are a lot of good reasons for doing this, and would have
positive impacts on the riders, the series, and other series as well.

And if verification becomes a problem (you just know Puig will go
looking for some third world kid with no birth certificate) and
carbon-dating or counting rings doesn't work, then they should use the
time-tested methodology of judging age, being "grown up" - if a rider
isn't above a certain height and/or weight (maybe 5-6 and 135 pounds),
then they can just wait until they are...
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Julian Bond wrote:
> Champ
> >As in an earlier thread, I'm no fan of 14 or 15 year olds on the grid.
> >And 16 seems pretty young too.
>
> >So, ok - you got me - I subscribe to your minimum age limits proposal.
>
> So does that apply to National SB as well then? Is 20 too young to be
> racing SB? How about Supersports or Superstock? Because in some ways
> (notwithstanding last week's daftness), those classes are more dangerous
> and filled with more idiots than MotoGP.

To me it's not so much the danger issue, and I'd hate to see
legislating age requirements. So I think national championships should
make their own decisons, and I'm okay with the AMA's age 16
requirement. I suppose an 18 minimum for SB would be a good idea, but
I don't think there are very many 16/17-year-olds who have raced in SB
anyway, they mostly seem to be in the SS classes. Kids should be
allowed to race, and they have to develop their riding skills
somewhere.

But a world championship is different, I don't think kind should be in
that sort of highly professional environment with all the pressures
and temptations, doing 18 rounds around the world, doing lots of
testing including in the winter, etc. And that includes the Red Bull
thing as well, which I think should be disconnected from the GPs.
Having kids under 18 do one-offs connected with GPs, like Herrin at
Laguna in AMA SS, is fine, but that's as far as I would go. What this
would do is something like the old days of the draft of college
"grads" in the NBA and NFL - guys learn elsewhere, and then at a
defined point they become eligible to race at the world level, and
come in on a relatively level playing field.
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On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:50:55 +0100, Champ <news.RemoveThis@champ.org.uk> dropped
the following oil-slick:
>
>Just for your info, you can drink legally at 18 in the UK. And that's
>in bars - there's no age limit if at home or on private property
>
5 years old at home, I think.
--
gomez
Honda TransAlp,KTM 640LC Enduro (For Sale)
(not is not to reply)
"The best tool for the job is the hammer thats nearest to hand"
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"gomez" <adams_gomez DeleteThis @hotmail.notcom> wrote in message
news:jemja3922103njsi8g4tvml7ilc0210rh3@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:50:55 +0100, Champ <news DeleteThis @champ.org.uk> dropped
> the following oil-slick:
>>
>>Just for your info, you can drink legally at 18 in the UK. And that's
>>in bars - there's no age limit if at home or on private property
>>
> 5 years old at home, I think.

Heh, heh, I thought that was just an Irish tradition...
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