Jerez '05

I'm not that knowledgeable about motorcycle racing, having started
watching motogp due to other sports becoming less interesting over the
years. But, I must admit that I can't see why Rossi seems to be at
fault in so many peoples' eyes. He was clearly making a desperate dive
down the inside, but isn't that, even if an extreme example, what
racing is about. I can't see that claims that Rossi 'punted' Gibernau
are correct. Gibernau was the one that turned into Rossi. It is true
that Gibernau was taking the normal line, but once Rossi was there he
certainly had no right to that line.

My take on it, not having seen more replays than the UK terra coverage,
was that the fault was on both sides, and the situation was that
neither was prepared to concede, so they touched.

I'm not a long-time follower of Rossi, and hence don't feel I'm biased.
However, given that I haven't seen that many MotoGP races, perhaps my
interpretation is wrong.

Cheers,

Ross-c
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

Mark N wrote:

 >
 > No doubt he should be penalized, except it can't happen because he's
 > EuroGod and can do no wrong. You would have never seen that shit from
 > Lawson or Rainey or Schwantz. Rossi may be amazingly talented, but he's
 > really got no class at all. Biaggi, Capirossi and Rossi - green peas in
 > a fuckin' red and white pod...

Maybe so, but given the recent history of riding penalties and the fact
that they both were "out there," I just didn't see it happening. If Capi
didn't earn a sanction from his bowling ball deal last year on the first
corner in Japland, I didn't see this one being called on the last,
especially given who was involved. What's interesting as well, is how so
many folks got all bent out of shape about it. These are "big boys" in
the largest series there is, to think they wouldn't be going for it hell
bent for leather at the end is a little naive. Although, after Rossi out
braked himself a corner or so earlier, well, he really seemed to get a
little further "out there," almost Qatarlike. In the end, Melandri came
close to inheriting a win, which would've been a sight to see, 127K
folks would've went totally apeshit!

Did you happen to notice the "03 race time comparo? Something like 65
seconds, Tires or bikes? Probably refinements of both. In any event,
it's an amazing leap...

Tom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

T3 wrote:

 > Maybe so, but given the recent history of riding penalties and the fact
 > that they both were "out there," I just didn't see it happening. If Capi
 > didn't earn a sanction from his bowling ball deal last year on the first
 > corner in Japland, I didn't see this one being called on the last,
 > especially given who was involved.

As I said elsewhere, I see a huge difference between what Sete and Vale
were doing, so you can't excuse Rossi based on that. But you're right
about the prospects of a penalty. I thought Loris deserved a bitch slap
after that Motegi deal, mostly because of the consequences to so many
guys. But the start of a race is a bit different than the last lap,
where there is only one guy to consider and time to think about moves to
make. And Rossi has enough of a history of this questionable stuff now
that he deserves to be taken to task over it.

At minimum he should be docked ten seconds, which would right the wrong
by giving the win to Gibernau, who would almost certainly have won had
Rossi not takien that unacceptable risk, and would leave Rossi with the
2nd he deserved to have based on his race. But that doesn't really cost
him anything, nothing to think about next time these circumstances
arise. A 20-second penalty would drop him to 3rd, a 30-second penalty
would have him 6th, and that's probably the range of a fair judgment. I
wouldn't argue against a stiffer penalty, but I wouldn't advocate it either.

What's interesting as well, is how so
 > many folks got all bent out of shape about it. These are "big boys" in
 > the largest series there is, to think they wouldn't be going for it hell
 > bent for leather at the end is a little naive. Although, after Rossi out
 > braked himself a corner or so earlier, well, he really seemed to get a
 > little further "out there," almost Qatarlike.

The issue is, is the guy in the lead a target, a guy you can just run
into or push off the track to pass? Absolutely not, so there is a line
that a guy trying to pass shouldn't be allowed to cross without
consequences (Julian's opinion aside). SFrank got this absolutely right,
you can always get inside someone if the consequences don't matter. A
rider shouldn't be allowed to use another rider as a berm, and that's
exactly what Rossi does, just in the last year from Welkom (Biaggi) to
Qatar (Barros) to Jerez (Gibernau). At the core he's a dirtball who
deserves to have his clown's face shoved in a fully-loaded toilet this
time...

In the end, Melandri came
 > close to inheriting a win, which would've been a sight to see, 127K
 > folks would've went totally apeshit!

Frankly, I would have just loved to see that. Just desserts in some
sense (and Melandri had a great weekend afterall), and the best thing
that could have happened for the championship. Which, btw, took a real
hit last weekend...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

Mark N <menusbaum RemoveThis @NYETSPAMearthlink.net> Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:08:08
 >Biaggi, Capirossi and Rossi - green peas in a fuckin' red and white
 >pod...

Oh Mark, you're so predictable.

--
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*** Just Say No To DRM ***<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Julian Bond wrote:
 > Mark N <menusbaum.RemoveThis@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:08:08
 >
  >> Biaggi, Capirossi and Rossi - green peas in a fuckin' red and white
  >> pod...

 > Oh Mark, you're so predictable.

As are you - after watching the end of the race I was certain what I'd
find you saying on this NG, and there it was. I guess we should think of
ourselves as consistent instead, seems a more pleasant notion...

But there is a sort of consistency among our Italian constituency in
MotoGP, isn't there? Hard to imagine a more arrogant, self-focused,
egotistical bunch, even though it shows in different ways. And of course
they all come from the "it ain't ballet" school of riding. The real
difference in people's opinions on them seems to come down to who wins
and who doesn't...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

 > But there is a sort of consistency among our Italian constituency in
 > MotoGP, isn't there? Hard to imagine a more arrogant, self-focused,
 > egotistical bunch, even though it shows in different ways. ...

I don't think it's because they're Italian, but rather because they're top
riders, who happen to have to be hyper-competitive and very driven. Remember
Spencer knocking Roberts into the dirt in Sweden to win the race and
championship many moons age? Does Spencer now have Italian ancestry? And are
Mladin and Yates such warm, endearing and generous people that they'd stop
in front of the corner saying "after you, please" Oh no, you" "I insist" "I
couldn't" etc...

 > ... they all come from the "it ain't ballet" school of riding. ...

Why is this always turned into some nationality based thing? US riders never
do boneheaded stuff? Does one rider's mistake automatically reflect badly on
all riders that share something as whimsical as his passport?

This has nothing to do with Rossi being Italian. I agree it was a clear
riding mistake, I agree he might have deserved a penalty, and I am worried
about the animosity being turned up another notch now. MotGP officials ought
to watch it very closely, but they also need to be careful now. It'll be
interesting to what they'll do when eventually Gibernau retaliates in
kind... I agree with MN on the fact a 10 sec penalty would have been good
for the MotoGP - a strong signal stating it's not worth risking as much
trying to win on the last turn like that, while not affcting the point
results much. It might have helped calm down things. It may have been the
smart thing to do. If things escalate more it would not be good for the
sport.

....pablo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

 > But there is a sort of consistency among our Italian constituency in
 > MotoGP, isn't there? Hard to imagine a more arrogant, self-focused,
 > egotistical bunch, even though it shows in different ways. ...

I don't think it's because they're Italian, but rather because they're top
riders, who happen to have to be hyper-competitive and very driven. Remember
Spencer knocking Roberts into the dirt in Sweden to win the race and
championship many moons age? Does Spencer now have Italian ancestry? And are
Mladin and Yates such warm, endearing and generous people that they'd stop
in front of the corner saying "after you, please" Oh no, you" "I insist" "I
couldn't" etc...

 > ... they all come from the "it ain't ballet" school of riding. ...

Why is this always turned into some nationality based thing? US riders never
do boneheaded stuff? Does one rider's mistake automatically reflect badly on
all riders that share something as whimsical as his passport?

This has nothing to do with Rossi being Italian. I agree it was a clear
riding mistake, I agree he might have deserved a penalty, and I am worried
about the animosity being turned up another notch now. MotGP officials ought
to watch it very closely, but they also need to be careful now. It'll be
interesting to what they'll do when eventually Gibernau retaliates in
kind... I agree with MN on the fact a 10 sec penalty would have been good
for the MotoGP - a strong signal stating it's not worth risking as much
trying to win on the last turn like that, while not affcting the point
results much. It might have helped calm down things. It may have been the
smart thing to do. If things escalate more it would not be good for the
sport.

....pablo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

<clemenr RemoveThis @wmin.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:1113399824.622084.129110@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
 > I'm not that knowledgeable about motorcycle racing, having started
 > watching motogp due to other sports becoming less interesting over the
 > years. But, I must admit that I can't see why Rossi seems to be at
 > fault in so many peoples' eyes. He was clearly making a desperate dive
 > down the inside, but isn't that, even if an extreme example, what
 > racing is about. I can't see that claims that Rossi 'punted' Gibernau
 > are correct. Gibernau was the one that turned into Rossi. It is true
 > that Gibernau was taking the normal line, but once Rossi was there he
 > certainly had no right to that line.
 >
 > My take on it, not having seen more replays than the UK terra coverage,
 > was that the fault was on both sides, and the situation was that
 > neither was prepared to concede, so they touched.
 >
 > I'm not a long-time follower of Rossi, and hence don't feel I'm biased.
 > However, given that I haven't seen that many MotoGP races, perhaps my
 > interpretation is wrong.

Don't worry, you're you got it very right.

/MBE<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

<clemenr.TakeThisOut@wmin.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:1113399824.622084.129110@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
 > .... But, I must admit that I can't see why Rossi seems to be at
 > fault in so many peoples' eyes. He was clearly making a desperate dive
 > down the inside, but isn't that, even if an extreme example, what
 > racing is about. ...

If desperate dives are what racing is about, that one's continued disregard
for the safety of others would be an asset. I truly hope racing never
becomes a sport that favors the desperate - top racers are successful
because of their very controlled aggression, and their ability to assess
risk-opportunity of any situation accurately. If racing was a sport for the
reckless, we'd hardly ever see half the field finsih a race...

 > ... Gibernau was the one that turned into Rossi. It is true
 > that Gibernau was taking the normal line, but once Rossi was there he
 > certainly had no right to that line.

Not sure this makes sense - why is Gibernau the one that according to your
logic is forced to concede the line? Seems to me you're giving Rossi too
much leeway there. What gave Rossi right to the line? Either both have right
for a contested line, or no one does. To say Gibernau loses the right
because Rossi plants his front tire there is a bit too one-sided...

 > My take on it, not having seen more replays than the UK terra coverage,
 > was that the fault was on both sides, and the situation was that
 > neither was prepared to concede, so they touched.

Gibernau did concede. He would not have wound up in the sandtrap if he
hadn't stood up the bike to make room for Rossi.

 > I'm not a long-time follower of Rossi, and hence don't feel I'm biased.
 > However, given that I haven't seen that many MotoGP races, perhaps my
 > interpretation is wrong.

Well, I have a different interpretation, that's all. We're all entitled to
ours... and race direction seems to share yours, so you may take comfort in
that.

....pablo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

pablo wrote:
  >>But there is a sort of consistency among our Italian constituency in
  >>MotoGP, isn't there? Hard to imagine a more arrogant, self-focused,
  >>egotistical bunch, even though it shows in different ways. ...

 > I don't think it's because they're Italian, but rather because they're top
 > riders, who happen to have to be hyper-competitive and very driven. Remember
 > Spencer knocking Roberts into the dirt in Sweden to win the race and
 > championship many moons age? Does Spencer now have Italian ancestry? And are
 > Mladin and Yates such warm, endearing and generous people that they'd stop
 > in front of the corner saying "after you, please" Oh no, you" "I insist" "I
 > couldn't" etc...

  >>... they all come from the "it ain't ballet" school of riding. ...

 > Why is this always turned into some nationality based thing? US riders never
 > do boneheaded stuff? Does one rider's mistake automatically reflect badly on
 > all riders that share something as whimsical as his passport?
 >
 > This has nothing to do with Rossi being Italian. I agree it was a clear
 > riding mistake, I agree he might have deserved a penalty, and I am worried
 > about the animosity being turned up another notch now. MotGP officials ought
 > to watch it very closely, but they also need to be careful now. It'll be
 > interesting to what they'll do when eventually Gibernau retaliates in
 > kind... I agree with MN on the fact a 10 sec penalty would have been good
 > for the MotoGP - a strong signal stating it's not worth risking as much
 > trying to win on the last turn like that, while not affcting the point
 > results much. It might have helped calm down things. It may have been the
 > smart thing to do. If things escalate more it would not be good for the
 > sport.

Well, now that you're done with your diatribe, Pablo, let me point out
that I said nothing about these guys being the way that they are because
they are Italian. My original reference was intended only to be a
comparison of Rossi to the hated Biaggi and the disreputable Capirossi,
something most people would never think to do, and only connected the
dots regarding the heritage as an afterthought, and without any intended
underlying meaning...

So am I out of your plonk file? Just wondering...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Jerez '05 

pablo wrote:
  >>But there is a sort of consistency among our Italian constituency in
  >>MotoGP, isn't there? Hard to imagine a more arrogant, self-focused,
  >>egotistical bunch, even though it shows in different ways. ...
 >
 >
 > I don't think it's because they're Italian, but rather because they're top
 > riders, who happen to have to be hyper-competitive and very driven. Remember
 > Spencer knocking Roberts into the dirt in Sweden to win the race and
 > championship many moons age? Does Spencer now have Italian ancestry? And are
 > Mladin and Yates such warm, endearing and generous people that they'd stop
 > in front of the corner saying "after you, please" Oh no, you" "I insist" "I
 > couldn't" etc...

You beat me to it about Freddie and the King! This kind of stuff has
been going on since racing started. But he's got a very valid point with
the remark about Rossi, Biaggi and Capi, they do seem to be the biggest
perpetrators but it still amazes me how some people get their panties in
a wad when they see it on TV. However, this could impact what other
riders might do or adopt, that's the downside, or maybe if those guys
get on the receiving end of an aggressive move, it might temper their
attitude somewhat, hmm, maybe not...

 >
 >
  >>... they all come from the "it ain't ballet" school of riding. ...
 >
 >
 > Why is this always turned into some nationality based thing? US riders never
 > do boneheaded stuff? Does one rider's mistake automatically reflect badly on
 > all riders that share something as whimsical as his passport?
 >
 > This has nothing to do with Rossi being Italian. I agree it was a clear
 > riding mistake, I agree he might have deserved a penalty, and I am worried
 > about the animosity being turned up another notch now. MotGP officials ought
 > to watch it very closely, but they also need to be careful now. It'll be
 > interesting to what they'll do when eventually Gibernau retaliates in
 > kind... I agree with MN on the fact a 10 sec penalty would have been good
 > for the MotoGP

You agree with MN? Wow, it's the end of the world as we know it!!!

- a strong signal stating it's not worth risking as much
 > trying to win on the last turn like that, while not affcting the point
 > results much. It might have helped calm down things. It may have been the
 > smart thing to do. If things escalate more it would not be good for the
 > sport.


I dunno about that, look at the ratings, they were over the top! As long
as no one gets hurt I'd be surprised if Dorna clamps down, but let it
cause an injury, especially if one of the chosen get slammed, they'll be
all over it...

Tom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Mark N" <menusbaum DeleteThis @NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vPKdnblPDKexGcDfRVn-uQ@giganews.com...
 >
 > ... My original reference was intended only to be a comparison of Rossi to
 > the hated Biaggi and the disreputable Capirossi, something most people
 > would never think to do ...

....until now, that is. I think this was the most blatant case, and that it
will henceforth increase the scrutiny Rossi is under. I am not sure I'd
associate Biaggi at all with rough tactics, he was tough in 250, but I think
he's mellowed a lot. The fact that Capirossi and Rossi may be both
associated with recklessness may be attentuated by the fact that perhaps
they need to be, a bit more than pothers, given the fact they're on bikes
that could be seen as somewhat inferior to the best Hondas, thus they need
to let it hang out more these days to mix things up at the top. But that
only excuses it to a certain degree, there comes a point when I think
recklessness can be taken too far, quite visibly, and I think the way Rossi
enterted that turn and ultimately knocked Gibernau off the track was -to me-
a clear case. As mentioned before, it was only excusable if it was a genuine
riding mistake, but then again people can and sometimes should be penalized
for committing mistakes that endanger others at times.

 > So am I out of your plonk file? Just wondering...

Setting up my new home computer network...

....pablo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"T3" <nowhere.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:9Ef7e.61156$Fz.21713@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
 >
 > You beat me to it about Freddie and the King! This kind of stuff has been
 > going on since racing started. But he's got a very valid point with the
 > remark about Rossi, Biaggi and Capi, they do seem to be the biggest
 > perpetrators but it still amazes me how some people get their panties in a
 > wad when they see it on TV.

Biaggi? When was the last time he did something rough? I don't think he has
a reputation like that, does he? Capirossi's one hairrising incident was the
Harada thing, which to ths day casts a shadow over him as far as I am
concerned. Last year's Capirossi incidents may have been genuine instances
of bad luck, in my opinion. Knocking off Biaggi's front tire was not
intentional, and falling off in a mellee was way too chancy to be seen as a
risk taken too lightly. I think he sometimes needs to ride his balls off to
keep the Duc in contention, and when that's the case you're bound to fall
off more than others, and sometimes it may be in the middle of the pack.

 > ... However, this could impact what other riders might do or adopt, that's
 > the downside, or maybe if those guys get on the receiving end of an
 > aggressive move, it might temper their attitude somewhat, hmm, maybe
 > not...

Exactly, that is my concern. Racing is dangerous enough as is, and every
once in a while I think the people in charge need to crack the whip to
prevent things of ever escalating out of control.

 > You agree with MN? Wow, it's the end of the world as we know it!!!

For the record, I have always agreed with many things Mark has written. It
would be childish to take the opposed view on every issue just as a ritual
of constant dissent.

 > I dunno about that, look at the ratings, they were over the top! As long
 > as no one gets hurt I'd be surprised if Dorna clamps down ...

But that's the thing, the day something really bad happens the rating may
take a huge plunge. Imagine a Monza '73 unfolding just because Dorna doesn't
keep the stars in check...

I *hate* racing injuries, that is the part of the sport that turns me off
with some regularity, I can't stomach witnessing them, and it's not because
I don't have the stomach for watching racing, it's because I have seen 2
motorcycle deaths first hand, and I do not like to be reminded about it. In
fact I am reaching for a glass of wine right now, because this reminded me,
dammit... Then again, I also remember being a little kid and crying when
they talked about Monza in the news in '73.

....pablo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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