not N.O.T. More India: Wired article

On 27 Jan 2004 15:34:08 -0800, spamTHISbrp DeleteThis @yahoo.com (XR650L_Dave)
wrote:

 >(not Not Off-Topic...)
 >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india_pr.html
 >
 >United States
 >GDP per capita $35,060
 >Unemployment rate 5.8%
 >Labor force 141.8 million
 >Population below the poverty line 13%
 >Typical salary for a programmer $70,000
 >
 >India
 >GDP per capita $480
 >Unemployment rate 8.8%
 >Labor force 406 million
 >Population below the poverty line 25%
 >Typical salary for a programmer $8,000
 >
 >Top 5 US Employers in India
 >General Electric 17,800 employees
 >Hewlett-Packard 11,000 employees
 >IBM 6,000 employees
 >American Express 4,000 employees
 >Dell 3,800 employees
 >
 >-DDave, not trying to get that whole thing going again but thought
 >this was good enough to share...

From the Financial Times (www.ft.com) - sorry, can't get the exact
link copied:

India attacks US on plan to ban outsourcing
By Khozem Merchant in Mumbai
Published: January 25 2004 19:11 | Last Updated: January 25 2004 19:11


India's technology industry has attacked proposed new US legislation
that bans the outsourcing of federal work to low cost countries
arguing it is a protectionist measure contrary to the spirit of free
trade.


The move by the US Senate coincides with decisions by a number of
foreign companies to halt further outsourcing to India because of a
new domestic tax ruling that would enable the Indian government to tax
part of their worldwide earnings.

The US bill, which was passed by the Senate of Friday but has still to
be signed by President George W. Bush before it becomes law, is the
most significant attempt to stop outsourcing, a fast-growing industry
trend that has led to the loss of thousands of highly-paid technology
jobs in the US and become a hot political issue in a US election year.

Although US federal contracts account for only 2 per cent of India's
IT earnings, the bill sends a worrying message to the Indian
outsourcing industry, which has been lobbying hard to stave off
protectionism.

Arun Shourie, Indian's information technology minister, said the bill
damaged the outlook for talks on freer multilateral trade. Kiran
Karnik, president of Nasscom, the umbrella body for Indian IT, said he
"hoped wiser counsel would prevail" before the law was enacted.

The revenues from India's technology industry are forecast to expand
by a third to $15.5bn in the year to March, with two-thirds of the
growth coming from the US, as more companies in North America and
elsewhere leverage India's high IT skills and low costs.

But US companies such as JP Morgan and General Electric, which have
outsourced thousands of jobs to India, could be casualties of the
controversial rule on the taxable status of foreign companies'
outsourced units. This week Nasscom said three unidentified foreign
companies with back office operations in India had frozen future
outsourcing until "there was clarity".

The government circular, which is binding on the tax-collecting
authorities, says a foreign company's global income would be taxable
under India's double-tax treaties if that company's outsourced unit in
India carries out "core revenue-generating activities." Non-core
activities conducted at arm's length and at fair market value would be
exempt.

Accountants say the ruling introduces artificial distinctions between
core and non-core work. "This raises technical ambiguities that could
lead to litigation," said one tax expert.

Experts say an accepted principle of global accounting norms is that
double-tax treaties override domestic tax regulations. Foreign
companies could therefore appeal to double tax pacts, which prevent
the imposition of taxes from different countries on the same business,
to circumvent the circular.

Nasscom has protested to the Indian government, arguing the measure is
contrary to the government's tax-friendly stance towards a nascent,
job-creating industry.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

Oh, GREAT! If that goes through, then I guess I'll have to change
careers! Sheesh! At this point, the only programming jobs available in
the US are government or military. And I'm not that thrilled at either
prospect.

scrape.at.@.nc.dot.rr..dot.com wrote:
 > On 27 Jan 2004 15:34:08 -0800, spamTHISbrp.DeleteThis@yahoo.com (XR650L_Dave)
 > wrote:
 >
 >
  >>(not Not Off-Topic...)
  >>http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india_pr.html
  >>
  >>United States
  >>GDP per capita $35,060
  >>Unemployment rate 5.8%
  >>Labor force 141.8 million
  >>Population below the poverty line 13%
  >>Typical salary for a programmer $70,000
  >>
  >>India
  >>GDP per capita $480
  >>Unemployment rate 8.8%
  >>Labor force 406 million
  >>Population below the poverty line 25%
  >>Typical salary for a programmer $8,000
  >>
  >>Top 5 US Employers in India
  >>General Electric 17,800 employees
  >>Hewlett-Packard 11,000 employees
  >>IBM 6,000 employees
  >>American Express 4,000 employees
  >>Dell 3,800 employees
  >>
  >>-DDave, not trying to get that whole thing going again but thought
  >>this was good enough to share...
 >
 >
 > From the Financial Times (www.ft.com) - sorry, can't get the exact
 > link copied:
 >
 > India attacks US on plan to ban outsourcing
 > By Khozem Merchant in Mumbai
 > Published: January 25 2004 19:11 | Last Updated: January 25 2004 19:11
 >
 >
 > India's technology industry has attacked proposed new US legislation
 > that bans the outsourcing of federal work to low cost countries
 > arguing it is a protectionist measure contrary to the spirit of free
 > trade.
 >
 >
 > The move by the US Senate coincides with decisions by a number of
 > foreign companies to halt further outsourcing to India because of a
 > new domestic tax ruling that would enable the Indian government to tax
 > part of their worldwide earnings.
 >
 > The US bill, which was passed by the Senate of Friday but has still to
 > be signed by President George W. Bush before it becomes law, is the
 > most significant attempt to stop outsourcing, a fast-growing industry
 > trend that has led to the loss of thousands of highly-paid technology
 > jobs in the US and become a hot political issue in a US election year.
 >
 > Although US federal contracts account for only 2 per cent of India's
 > IT earnings, the bill sends a worrying message to the Indian
 > outsourcing industry, which has been lobbying hard to stave off
 > protectionism.
 >
 > Arun Shourie, Indian's information technology minister, said the bill
 > damaged the outlook for talks on freer multilateral trade. Kiran
 > Karnik, president of Nasscom, the umbrella body for Indian IT, said he
 > "hoped wiser counsel would prevail" before the law was enacted.
 >
 > The revenues from India's technology industry are forecast to expand
 > by a third to $15.5bn in the year to March, with two-thirds of the
 > growth coming from the US, as more companies in North America and
 > elsewhere leverage India's high IT skills and low costs.
 >
 > But US companies such as JP Morgan and General Electric, which have
 > outsourced thousands of jobs to India, could be casualties of the
 > controversial rule on the taxable status of foreign companies'
 > outsourced units. This week Nasscom said three unidentified foreign
 > companies with back office operations in India had frozen future
 > outsourcing until "there was clarity".
 >
 > The government circular, which is binding on the tax-collecting
 > authorities, says a foreign company's global income would be taxable
 > under India's double-tax treaties if that company's outsourced unit in
 > India carries out "core revenue-generating activities." Non-core
 > activities conducted at arm's length and at fair market value would be
 > exempt.
 >
 > Accountants say the ruling introduces artificial distinctions between
 > core and non-core work. "This raises technical ambiguities that could
 > lead to litigation," said one tax expert.
 >
 > Experts say an accepted principle of global accounting norms is that
 > double-tax treaties override domestic tax regulations. Foreign
 > companies could therefore appeal to double tax pacts, which prevent
 > the imposition of taxes from different countries on the same business,
 > to circumvent the circular.
 >
 > Nasscom has protested to the Indian government, arguing the measure is
 > contrary to the government's tax-friendly stance towards a nascent,
 > job-creating industry.
 >
 >
 >
 >


--
Stephen Bobic
(You'll figure out how to fix the e-mail address.)

1979 RM-125 (in restoration)
1991 RM-250 (in need of sale)
2002 CRF-450R (current love)
2002 SX-520 (motard)

AMA, GARTRA, Proline Motorsports<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

On 27 Jan 2004 15:34:08 -0800, spamTHISbrp DeleteThis @yahoo.com (XR650L_Dave)
wrote:

 >India
 >Typical salary for a programmer $8,000

Interesting. How is the cost of living in India?

--
Tiago Rocha
Recife - Brasil
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net" target="_blank">www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

Stephen Bobic <mxcat.TakeThisOut@mindSPAMspringSPAM.comSPAM> wrote in message news:<4016A119.2020000.TakeThisOut@mindSPAMspringSPAM.comSPAM>...
 > Oh, GREAT! If that goes through, then I guess I'll have to change
 > careers! Sheesh! At this point, the only programming jobs available in
 > the US are government or military. And I'm not that thrilled at either
 > prospect.

Why? I programmed for the military. Doesn't mean you have wear a
uniform, you know.

Pete P.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

Interesting, the top five employers total does not seem to be that much in
relationship to the number of layoffs in the USA. I expected that number
to be much higher. It could be that the other employers make up more?

Quote from a systems-engineer looking for work.
"The only people who think the economy is getting
better is those with jobs"

"XR650L_Dave" <spamTHISbrp RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5eafeac.0401271534.534162d0@posting.google.com...
 > (not Not Off-Topic...)
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india_pr.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india_pr.html</font</a>>
 >
 > United States
 > GDP per capita $35,060
 > Unemployment rate 5.8%
 > Labor force 141.8 million
 > Population below the poverty line 13%
 > Typical salary for a programmer $70,000
 >
 > India
 > GDP per capita $480
 > Unemployment rate 8.8%
 > Labor force 406 million
 > Population below the poverty line 25%
 > Typical salary for a programmer $8,000
 >
 > Top 5 US Employers in India
 > General Electric 17,800 employees
 > Hewlett-Packard 11,000 employees
 > IBM 6,000 employees
 > American Express 4,000 employees
 > Dell 3,800 employees
 >
 > -DDave, not trying to get that whole thing going again but thought
 > this was good enough to share...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:01:16 -0300, Tiago Rocha
<please.see.link.at.signature.for.email.address.DeleteThis@zaz.com.br> wrote:

Just had time to read the entire article....


  >>India
  >>Typical salary for a programmer $8,000
 >
 >Interesting. How is the cost of living in India?

Much less than in Brasil, that's for sure. With a meal for 50 cents...
Here, the best price I can get is 1.25...

--
Tiago Rocha
Recife - Brasil
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net" target="_blank">www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:58:37 -0300, Tiago Rocha
<please.see.link.at.signature.for.email.address.DeleteThis@zaz.com.br> wrote:


  >>Interesting. How is the cost of living in India?
 >
 >Much less than in Brasil, that's for sure. With a meal for 50 cents...
 >Here, the best price I can get is 1.25...

Yeah, but for 50 cents all you get is a little scoop of mud and some
bacteria water.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

"Tiago Rocha" <please.see.link.at.signature.for.email.address.DeleteThis@zaz.com.br>
wrote in message news:ivmf105ojiqifdklkmvsc6rmtr6810rkut@4ax.com...
 > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:01:16 -0300, Tiago Rocha
 > <please.see.link.at.signature.for.email.address.DeleteThis@zaz.com.br> wrote:
 >
 > Just had time to read the entire article....
 >
 >
   > >>India
   > >>Typical salary for a programmer $8,000
  > >
  > >Interesting. How is the cost of living in India?
 >
 > Much less than in Brasil, that's for sure. With a meal for 50 cents...
 > Here, the best price I can get is 1.25...
 >
 > --
 > Tiago Rocha
 > Recife - Brasil
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</font" target="_blank">www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</font</a>>


But you can eat a hamburger. Or a steak. Also, I'm sure your standard of
living far exceeds India.

John<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:22:45 GMT, "spodely" <spodely DeleteThis @carolina.rr.com>
wrote:

 >But you can eat a hamburger. Or a steak. Also, I'm sure your standard of
 >living far exceeds India.

Agreed. What I was thinking!!!!

How could I stop eating cow kneecaps cooked with jerked donkey beef
and black beans??? Or goat brain?? Or a mix of every innards that is
inside a cow, cooked on it's blood, with manioc flour and red
pepper????

India and Brasil are very similar coutries... With lots of poor... And
they are better than us, muuuuch better. There was a story on 3rd
world coutries and why br is among then and worse than China and
India, on a very respectable weekly magazine. This week issue... I
read it yesterday...

Average programmer salary here is $5k/year. Anyway, I should stop
complaining. Sorry.

 >John

--
Tiago Rocha
Recife - Brasil
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net" target="_blank">www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

"Jim Douglas" <james.douglas.RemoveThis@genesis-software.com> wrote:

 >Interesting, the top five employers total does not seem to be that much in
 >relationship to the number of layoffs in the USA. I expected that number
 >to be much higher. It could be that the other employers make up more?

Some of the bigggest growth in India itself is in the call-center kind
of jobs, run by Indian companies. The traditional "Zamindar"
job-shop operation, steppin' high-tech.
One of the biggest Indian outsourcing companies is moving their
operation to Malysia for operational cost and efficiencies
(infrastructure too expensive). (Traditionally infrastructure=bribes).

My understanding is they contract with the US companies for the jobs.
Those are the "other' employers, who now have attacked proposed US
legislation that bans the outsourcing of Federal work to low cost
countries.

-k<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

"Tiago Rocha" <please.see.link.at.signature.for.email.address RemoveThis @zaz.com.br>
wrote in message news:1vqf10d0m1029lgc9qm4asie8n33hk36or@4ax.com...
 > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:22:45 GMT, "spodely" <spodely RemoveThis @carolina.rr.com>
 > wrote:
 >
  > >But you can eat a hamburger. Or a steak. Also, I'm sure your standard
of
  > >living far exceeds India.
 >
 > Agreed. What I was thinking!!!!
 >
 > How could I stop eating cow kneecaps cooked with jerked donkey beef
 > and black beans??? Or goat brain?? Or a mix of every innards that is
 > inside a cow, cooked on it's blood, with manioc flour and red
 > pepper????
 >
 > India and Brasil are very similar coutries... With lots of poor... And
 > they are better than us, muuuuch better. There was a story on 3rd
 > world coutries and why br is among then and worse than China and
 > India, on a very respectable weekly magazine. This week issue... I
 > read it yesterday...
 >
 > Average programmer salary here is $5k/year. Anyway, I should stop
 > complaining. Sorry.
 >
  > >John
 >
 > --
 > Tiago Rocha
 > Recife - Brasil
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</font" target="_blank">www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</font</a>>


Wow, I would never have guessed. Well, consider what kind of riding you
would get to do there. Maybe that will help. All I can think of at the
moment.

John<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article 

I always thought of Brazil, China and India as 2nd world countries.

"Tiago Rocha" <please.see.link.at.signature.for.email.address DeleteThis @zaz.com.br>
wrote in message news:1vqf10d0m1029lgc9qm4asie8n33hk36or@4ax.com...
 > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:22:45 GMT, "spodely" <spodely DeleteThis @carolina.rr.com>
 > wrote:
 >
  > >But you can eat a hamburger. Or a steak. Also, I'm sure your standard
of
  > >living far exceeds India.
 >
 > Agreed. What I was thinking!!!!
 >
 > How could I stop eating cow kneecaps cooked with jerked donkey beef
 > and black beans??? Or goat brain?? Or a mix of every innards that is
 > inside a cow, cooked on it's blood, with manioc flour and red
 > pepper????
 >
 > India and Brasil are very similar coutries... With lots of poor... And
 > they are better than us, muuuuch better. There was a story on 3rd
 > world coutries and why br is among then and worse than China and
 > India, on a very respectable weekly magazine. This week issue... I
 > read it yesterday...
 >
 > Average programmer salary here is $5k/year. Anyway, I should stop
 > complaining. Sorry.
 >
  > >John
 >
 > --
 > Tiago Rocha
 > Recife - Brasil
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</font" target="_blank">www.diariodastrilhas.cjb.net</font</a>><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: not N.O.T. More India: Wired article