Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification?

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:18:26 +0000, Simon Wilson
<siwilson DeleteThis @hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> wrote:

>Simon Wilson wrote:
>> Thoughts?
>>
>Bad form post warning.
>
>It seems quite few people have had success with bikes.
>http://www.msruns.com/viewforum.php?f=93
>
>My interest is growing.

Never done anything like that, but at a wild guess it would be an
interesting project and if that's what you want then go for it.

It would probably require a lot of work to get it running properly,
maybe a lot more than just getting a standard bike working as it
should. Unless you can copy exactly what someone else has already done
on that particular model then you're virtually starting from scratch.
At least with the existing set-up you have a basically operational
engine.

Mind you, apparently manufacturers like Guzzi switched to fuel
injection because it's easier to set up (and meet emission
requirements) than carbs would be.

--
-Pip
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Simon Wilson <siwilson.TakeThisOut@hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> writes:

> I've not been able to get my SO Honda CB750 running properly even
> after stripping and changing carb bits and bodies several times. It's
> not bad but it's still not right, and the fuel consumption is awful.

Try getting a set of known good carbs. This sounds like the problem TOG
had with his CB500T that wouldn't run properly (for a 500T) despite
multiple attempts at getting it sorted.

> I picked up a classic car mag the other day and flipped through it to
> read an article on adding EFI to an old banger.

Practical Classics, right?

If you want to get a somewhat better understanding of what's involved,
it may be worth trying to track down the early issues of Practical
Performance Car where Dave Walker (one of the folks behind the Emerald
ECUs) describes how to add homegrown FI to an engine. If I remember,
I'll try to do work out which issues are the ones you need but as I
don't have all of them either, that'll involve some guesswork.

The one in PC is relatively simple because "all" they're doing (more or
less) is bolting a Mini single-point injection system onto the car.

> I'm wondering whether it would be possible to fit something like this
> http://www.megasquirt.info/ Has anyone tried it, or anything like it
> on a bike? There'd be problems like finding space for the fuel pump,
> O2 sensor etc.,but it might be fun to try.

Should be, Megasquirt's been used on some odd stuff as far as I can
tell.

> I saw that Triumph's latest retro bikes have fitted the injectors
> inside carb castings. If that could be done on the old carb bodies
> without too much work I could keep the bike looking the same-ish.

That's going to be major work - I'd try to find some throttle bodies
that fit for my first attempt. A BMW K100 may give up its in-tank fuel
pump (I'd get another tank if I were you to modify it accordingly) and
then try to find some bike throttle bodies that have the same
spacing. IMHO that's far easier than converting the carbs.

--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450 K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33
The UKRMC FAQ: http://www.unixconsult.co.uk/bike/ukrmcfaq.html
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Timo Geusch wrote:
> Simon Wilson <siwilson RemoveThis @hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> writes:
>
>> I've not been able to get my SO Honda CB750 running properly even
>> after stripping and changing carb bits and bodies several times. It's
>> not bad but it's still not right, and the fuel consumption is awful.
>
> Try getting a set of known good carbs. This sounds like the problem TOG
> had with his CB500T that wouldn't run properly (for a 500T) despite
> multiple attempts at getting it sorted.

Indeed. Finding a known set of good carbs easier said than done I think.

>
>> I picked up a classic car mag the other day and flipped through it to
>> read an article on adding EFI to an old banger.
>
> Practical Classics, right?

Think so. I didn't buy it, just had a pikey quick read in Smiths.

>
> If you want to get a somewhat better understanding of what's involved,
> it may be worth trying to track down the early issues of Practical
> Performance Car where Dave Walker (one of the folks behind the Emerald
> ECUs) describes how to add homegrown FI to an engine. If I remember,
> I'll try to do work out which issues are the ones you need but as I
> don't have all of them either, that'll involve some guesswork.
>
> The one in PC is relatively simple because "all" they're doing (more or
> less) is bolting a Mini single-point injection system onto the car.
>
>> I'm wondering whether it would be possible to fit something like this
>> http://www.megasquirt.info/ Has anyone tried it, or anything like it
>> on a bike? There'd be problems like finding space for the fuel pump,
>> O2 sensor etc.,but it might be fun to try.
>
> Should be, Megasquirt's been used on some odd stuff as far as I can
> tell.
>
>> I saw that Triumph's latest retro bikes have fitted the injectors
>> inside carb castings. If that could be done on the old carb bodies
>> without too much work I could keep the bike looking the same-ish.
>
> That's going to be major work - I'd try to find some throttle bodies
> that fit for my first attempt. A BMW K100 may give up its in-tank fuel
> pump (I'd get another tank if I were you to modify it accordingly) and
> then try to find some bike throttle bodies that have the same
> spacing. IMHO that's far easier than converting the carbs.
>

Yuss. There's a few sets on ebay at the moment. GSXR ones seem to be
favourite fof the car retrofits too. Even if the spacing's not dead on I
could probably make them fir with suitable rubbers. Fuel pump from the
same bike seem popular too.

Thanks for the ideas.

/Simon
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Simon Wilson <siwilson.TakeThisOut@hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> writes:

> Timo Geusch wrote:
>> Simon Wilson <siwilson.TakeThisOut@hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> I've not been able to get my SO Honda CB750 running properly even
>>> after stripping and changing carb bits and bodies several times. It's
>>> not bad but it's still not right, and the fuel consumption is awful.
>>
>> Try getting a set of known good carbs. This sounds like the problem TOG
>> had with his CB500T that wouldn't run properly (for a 500T) despite
>> multiple attempts at getting it sorted.
>
> Indeed. Finding a known set of good carbs easier said than done I think.
>
>>
>>> I picked up a classic car mag the other day and flipped through it to
>>> read an article on adding EFI to an old banger.
>>
>> Practical Classics, right?
>
> Think so. I didn't buy it, just had a pikey quick read in Smiths.

OK, I've got the two issues they did on that so far.

Save your money.

> Yuss. There's a few sets on ebay at the moment. GSXR ones seem to be
> favourite fof the car retrofits too. Even if the spacing's not dead on
> I could probably make them fir with suitable rubbers. Fuel pump from
> the same bike seem popular too.

The issue with the spacing is likely to be the easily solved if you've
got to widen it, but narrowing it maybe a problem...

Oh, and from what I've seen, the MS ECUs aren't that compact if you go
for the self-assembly ones. There seem to be readily assembled ones that
are a lot smaller (MSPNP). That would probably be my choice for bike
applications.

<thinks>

Are fibreglass tanks legal in the UK? Only asking because they aren't in
Germany...

If so, you could make on which looks like the original from the outside,
but with the necessary cubbyholes/access panels for the fuel pump.

This looks like one of these "how long is a piece of string"
projects. When did you want to get this bike running again?

--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450 K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33
The UKRMC FAQ: http://www.unixconsult.co.uk/bike/ukrmcfaq.html
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Timo Geusch wrote:
>
> Are fibreglass tanks legal in the UK? Only asking because they aren't
> in Germany...

IIRC the first R80 Paris-Dakar bikes were illegal in the UK because they had
plastic tanks. OTOH my '84 Citroen BX16RS had a plastic tank.
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

platypus wrote:
> Timo Geusch wrote:
>>
>> Are fibreglass tanks legal in the UK? Only asking because they aren't
>> in Germany...
>
> IIRC the first R80 Paris-Dakar bikes were illegal in the UK because they
> had plastic tanks. OTOH my '84 Citroen BX16RS had a plastic tank.
>

BSA A65 Spitfire is a fibreblass tank I think. But whether they are
legal on more recent bikes or not I don't know.

--
/Simon
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Timo Geusch wrote:

> OK, I've got the two issues they did on that so far.
>
> Save your money.

Well if you don't mind scanning the articles I'd appreciate it. There is
a lot of info on the various MS forums too.

>
>> Yuss. There's a few sets on ebay at the moment. GSXR ones seem to be
>> favourite fof the car retrofits too. Even if the spacing's not dead on
>> I could probably make them fir with suitable rubbers. Fuel pump from
>> the same bike seem popular too.
>
> The issue with the spacing is likely to be the easily solved if you've
> got to widen it, but narrowing it maybe a problem...

Agreed.

>
> Oh, and from what I've seen, the MS ECUs aren't that compact if you go
> for the self-assembly ones. There seem to be readily assembled ones that
> are a lot smaller (MSPNP). That would probably be my choice for bike
> applications.

Yes they are rather large - but, I get the fun of making it. Once I got
it all working I could go for one of the smaller versions.

>
> This looks like one of these "how long is a piece of string"
> projects. When did you want to get this bike running again?
>

Agreed there too. The bike does actually run now, I'm not in any hurry,
but it would be a really interesting project and hopefully not burn[1]
up too much cash,

[1] Unless I had a high pressure fuel leak, I guess that could be quite
spectacular/expensive

--
/Simon
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Simon Wilson <siwilson.RemoveThis@hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> writes:

> Timo Geusch wrote:
>
>> OK, I've got the two issues they did on that so far.
>>
>> Save your money.
>
> Well if you don't mind scanning the articles I'd appreciate it. There
> is a lot of info on the various MS forums too.

Well, the comment was more directed at the two PC issues...

I would potentially consider scanning the articles in Practical
Performance Car mag. Trouble is, I don't have most of these really old
issues, even though I'm currently buying PPC on ebay like it's going out
of fashion.

Drop me an email to timo <at> the above domain and I'll see what I can
do if/when the next big parcel full of magazines turns up.

>> Oh, and from what I've seen, the MS ECUs aren't that compact if you go
>> for the self-assembly ones. There seem to be readily assembled ones that
>> are a lot smaller (MSPNP). That would probably be my choice for bike
>> applications.
>
> Yes they are rather large - but, I get the fun of making it. Once I
> got it all working I could go for one of the smaller versions.

I don't think they do the smaller ones for self-assembly,
unfortunately. I'm tempted myself to build one and stick it on the MX5
for the heck of it, especially as it'd get rid of the MAF sensor which
is a bit of a known weak spot on those.

>> This looks like one of these "how long is a piece of string"
>> projects. When did you want to get this bike running again?
>>
>
> Agreed there too. The bike does actually run now, I'm not in any
> hurry, but it would be a really interesting project and hopefully not
> burn[1] up too much cash,

Agreed. Especially if you go for mapped ignition as well...

> [1] Unless I had a high pressure fuel leak, I guess that could be
> quite spectacular/expensive

It's not that bad - the Triumph ST I used to have did this on a fairly
regular basis, but never caught fire. I don't know if that was a good
thing though.

--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450 K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33
The UKRMC FAQ: http://www.unixconsult.co.uk/bike/ukrmcfaq.html
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:00:39 +0000, Timo Geusch
<tnewsSPAMMENOT.RemoveThis@unixconsult.co.uk> wrote:
>Are fibreglass tanks legal in the UK? Only asking because they aren't in
>Germany...

Fibreglass specifically or plastic generally? My Guzzi's tank is
plastic, so I guess some plastics must be legal. Oh, so's the
Aprilia's, now that I think about it.


--
-Pip
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:12:24 GMT, in
<bl8hr3hmuo3s9hgccjfag9g4fejuf7tiu0 DeleteThis @4ax.com>, Pip Luscher
<pips.computer DeleteThis @spammers.foad.ntlworld.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:00:39 +0000, Timo Geusch
><tnewsSPAMMENOT DeleteThis @unixconsult.co.uk> wrote:
>>Are fibreglass tanks legal in the UK? Only asking because they aren't in
>>Germany...
>
>Fibreglass specifically or plastic generally? My Guzzi's tank is
>plastic, so I guess some plastics must be legal. Oh, so's the
>Aprilia's, now that I think about it.

And my old Sprint ST was, so presumably quite a lot of other Triumphs
as well.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (b.rogers at ifrance.com)
\`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10
`\\ | //'
`\|/`
`
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Timo Geusch wrote:
> Simon Wilson <siwilson.RemoveThis@hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> writes:
>
>> Timo Geusch wrote:
>>
>>> OK, I've got the two issues they did on that so far.
>>>
>>> Save your money.
>> Well if you don't mind scanning the articles I'd appreciate it. There
>> is a lot of info on the various MS forums too.
>
> Well, the comment was more directed at the two PC issues...
>
> I would potentially consider scanning the articles in Practical
> Performance Car mag. Trouble is, I don't have most of these really old
> issues, even though I'm currently buying PPC on ebay like it's going out
> of fashion.
>
> Drop me an email to timo <at> the above domain and I'll see what I can
> do if/when the next big parcel full of magazines turns up.

Ah no worries I mis-interpreted your comment. The stuff on the forums
seems much better quality than the magazine article I read.

>
>>> Oh, and from what I've seen, the MS ECUs aren't that compact if you go
>>> for the self-assembly ones. There seem to be readily assembled ones that
>>> are a lot smaller (MSPNP). That would probably be my choice for bike
>>> applications.
>> Yes they are rather large - but, I get the fun of making it. Once I
>> got it all working I could go for one of the smaller versions.
>
> I don't think they do the smaller ones for self-assembly,
> unfortunately. I'm tempted myself to build one and stick it on the MX5
> for the heck of it, especially as it'd get rid of the MAF sensor which
> is a bit of a known weak spot on those.

No, the smaller ones are surface-mount stuff so not for making at home.
Others appear to have made their own circuit boards to shrink the
design. I'm sure that could be solved later.

I haven't had any trouble on my MX5 so far - is this before or after you
flog it to TOG?

>
>>> This looks like one of these "how long is a piece of string"
>>> projects. When did you want to get this bike running again?
>>>
>> Agreed there too. The bike does actually run now, I'm not in any
>> hurry, but it would be a really interesting project and hopefully not
>> burn[1] up too much cash,
>
> Agreed. Especially if you go for mapped ignition as well...
>

Yep that's the idea. Doing the ignition would be a job for Ron. [1]

>> [1] Unless I had a high pressure fuel leak, I guess that could be
>> quite spectacular/expensive
>
> It's not that bad - the Triumph ST I used to have did this on a fairly
> regular basis, but never caught fire. I don't know if that was a good
> thing though.
>

Heh. One of the dire warnings on their site says 'have two extinguishers
available'. I have managed to have quite a spectacular flashback with
carb cleaner, that luckily went out on its own.


[1] later-on

--
/Simon
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Simon Wilson <siwilson RemoveThis @hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> writes:

> Timo Geusch wrote:
>> Simon Wilson <siwilson RemoveThis @hotDIESPAMMERDIEmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Timo Geusch wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, I've got the two issues they did on that so far.
>>>>
>>>> Save your money.
>>> Well if you don't mind scanning the articles I'd appreciate it. There
>>> is a lot of info on the various MS forums too.
>>
>> Well, the comment was more directed at the two PC issues...
>>
>> I would potentially consider scanning the articles in Practical
>> Performance Car mag. Trouble is, I don't have most of these really old
>> issues, even though I'm currently buying PPC on ebay like it's going out
>> of fashion.
>>
>> Drop me an email to timo <at> the above domain and I'll see what I can
>> do if/when the next big parcel full of magazines turns up.
>
> Ah no worries I mis-interpreted your comment. The stuff on the forums
> seems much better quality than the magazine article I read.

Doesn't surprise me - the guys who're doing PC these days all seem to be
a bit, well, wet.

The last bunch of utter petrolheads that ran Practical Classics went off
and created Practical Performance Car. Their mag is far more
entertaining and actually (at least the older issues) packed with good
technical features.

Plus, they have a habit of writing about people who stick inappropriate
engines into cars, like the bloke who put an Audi V8 into a Lotus
Esprit. I've got a lot of respect for nutters like that.

>>>> Oh, and from what I've seen, the MS ECUs aren't that compact if you go
>>>> for the self-assembly ones. There seem to be readily assembled ones that
>>>> are a lot smaller (MSPNP). That would probably be my choice for bike
>>>> applications.
>>> Yes they are rather large - but, I get the fun of making it. Once I
>>> got it all working I could go for one of the smaller versions.
>>
>> I don't think they do the smaller ones for self-assembly,
>> unfortunately. I'm tempted myself to build one and stick it on the MX5
>> for the heck of it, especially as it'd get rid of the MAF sensor which
>> is a bit of a known weak spot on those.
>
> No, the smaller ones are surface-mount stuff so not for making at
> home. Others appear to have made their own circuit boards to shrink
> the design. I'm sure that could be solved later.
>
> I haven't had any trouble on my MX5 so far - is this before or after
> you flog it to TOG?

Neither have I, which is probably why I spend money on go-faster bits
for it instead of just flogging doing the sensible thing and it to
TOG. But that would mean I'd have to take the RX7 to trackdays and I
don't think I've got enough spare underwear for that.

The MAF is one of the know trouble spots, and mine's had a replacement
sometime before I got it. Oddly enough that didn't fix the problem with
the crank cambelt wheels wobbling about on the crank... Plus if you get
rid of the MAF you can either shorten the run for the intake or build a
slightly more reliable system if a supercharger would accidentally fall
into the engine bay.

Not that I've got plans like this, not after visiting
http://www.monstermiata.com/

>>>> This looks like one of these "how long is a piece of string"
>>>> projects. When did you want to get this bike running again?
>>>>
>>> Agreed there too. The bike does actually run now, I'm not in any
>>> hurry, but it would be a really interesting project and hopefully not
>>> burn[1] up too much cash,
>>
>> Agreed. Especially if you go for mapped ignition as well...
>>
>
> Yep that's the idea. Doing the ignition would be a job for Ron. [1]

Trouble is, that's another mapping session with a laptop bungied to the
bike, unless you have access to a rolling road.

But then again, probably easier to get running this way.

>>> [1] Unless I had a high pressure fuel leak, I guess that could be
>>> quite spectacular/expensive
>>
>> It's not that bad - the Triumph ST I used to have did this on a fairly
>> regular basis, but never caught fire. I don't know if that was a good
>> thing though.
>>
>
> Heh. One of the dire warnings on their site says 'have two
> extinguishers available'. I have managed to have quite a spectacular
> flashback with carb cleaner, that luckily went out on its own.

I'd be tempted to fire up the bike out in the open, at least for the
first couple of times .

--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450 K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33
The UKRMC FAQ: http://www.unixconsult.co.uk/bike/ukrmcfaq.html
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification? 

Ace wrote:

> > > Are fibreglass tanks legal in the UK? Only asking because they
> > > aren't in Germany...
> >
> > Fibreglass specifically or plastic generally? My Guzzi's tank is
> > plastic, so I guess some plastics must be legal. Oh, so's the
> > Aprilia's, now that I think about it.
>
> And my old Sprint ST was, so presumably quite a lot of other Triumphs
> as well.

I think the change in the law was early 90s, about the same time Triumph
started production.

--
Simon
 >> Stay informed about: Fed up with shite in the carbs, FI modification?