Euro diesel reaches the US

Jack Hunt wrote:

> If someone is certain that a smaller diesel car is the greatest thing since
> sliced bread, let him round up a boatload and shove them through customs and EPA
> regulations. He can't miss, can he?
>
> VW has been selling diesel Rabbits here for several years. They have a small
> but dedicated following. There were a few diesel Ford Escorts sold but they
> never did well. I don't know why. Possibly because the rest of the car was so
> poorly constructed...

I rented a Ford Fusion in Italy. Note that this is *not* the same car
as sold under the Fusion name in the USA. This car was a little wagon
somewhat similar to my Focus wagon, but smaller. It had a 1.4l turbo-diesel
engine. It was plenty peppy, very much unlike the old diesel Rabbit
I drove years ago. The Fusion 1.4 TDCi is also is rated at over 50 mpg[1].
Why Ford doesn't sell that car in the USA I have no idea but I bet they'd
sell a boatload of them.

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/ford-fusion-1.4-t...-100354

[1] The claimed fuel economy in the above article is "64 mpg combined"
but remember those are UK gallons, which are 1.2 US gallons, making the
US combined mpg about 53 mpg.

--
'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:56:25 -0400, "Hank" <ursa.TakeThisOut@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:

>btw 256,000 miles at 10 MPG cost $64,000 using a $2.50 gallon. ( I know,
>it's over $3 but it hasn't always been). A 20MPG diesel would have used half
>of that, saving $32,000 on fuel.

Thank you for your research, but your data is incomplete. It doesn't get 10mpg.
It gets 20 to 27 depending on load. It's a 5 liter straight six with multiport
fuel injection, four speed automatic with lockup torque converter, and has a
3.47 ratio positive traction differential (stock is 3.90). I ordered the six,
the transmission, the ratio, and the positive traction when I bought it new.
These were all available options but not standard. At the time (1994 Ford),
diesel was only an option on 4wd trucks, which I did not want.

When I bought the truck, gasoline was $.84 per gallon and the only reason I
didn't get a 5 speed manual was that I would often be hauling two other people
and the shifter would be in the way. Within a year that changed and I rarely
have more than one other person in the cab with me.

Most 4wd vehicles are driven to exhaustion without ever having the feature used,
at a significant fuel economy loss. The positive traction lets mine go places
one would not think it could go, and costs nothing in fuel. The posi-traction
clutches are somewhat worn now, I may look into replacing them this summer.

Diesel is now about $.40 higher than gasoline so I would have actually lost
money if I'd been buying diesel all this time. Unlike most, I put a great deal
of thought into this truck before I bought it, and bought the amount of power
and the features I actually needed, not what was fashionable.

>Also, I think a very punishing tax (int the order of 100%) on fuel for
>pickups that can't prove that they ever haul a load would go a long way
>towards cleaning up emissions.

I use this one mostly to tow a 5,000 pound tractor on a trailer. Does that
qualify?

I'd support that tax on 4wd vehicles that don't need 4wd. IMO that's one of the
biggest fuel wastes.

--
Jack
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Feb 13, 1:47 pm, Bob Scott <B... DeleteThis @bobandaileen.co.uk> wrote:
> Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216... DeleteThis @aol.com> writes
>
> >Peugeot stopped importing to the U.S. maybe 20 years ago.
> >I've owned a couple and would consider another one if
> >it were available. Great suspension and very durable.
> >Reportedly not too resistant to road salt.
>
> My Father ran Citroens from the mid '80s until a couple of years ago.
> Can't say any of them had corrosion problems - the first diesel BX was
> fragile when thrashed, the next had a rev counter & was still pulling
> happily at the redline. It was more robust than it's predecessor but
> 20mph slower... Since then I've been keen on either rev counters or rev
> limiters
>
> Only reason he stopped buying Citroen was that the C5 (the successor to
> the Xantia he was replacing) was too big for the garage. The Renualts
> that proceeded the Citroens did rot but not nearly as badly as the Fords
> of the time.
>
> >The problem with both Peugeot and Citroen is that French
> >national pride demands that many things be done differently
> >from the rest of the world, even if the rest of the world
> >has a pretty reasonable way of doing things.
>
> I can never make up my mind if it was French national pride or merely
> Citroen's engineers answering questions that no-one was asking.

My favorite Peugeot ideosyncrasy was wiper and turn
signal stems reversed on the steering column, turn
signal on the right. People wonder why you're turning
on your wipers every time you make a turn.

Some of the other stuff like wet sleeve cylinders
and small diameter radiator cores made lots of sense
but could cause lots of grief when the car was tended
to by people who weren't used to it's oddities.

One guy I know who was used to heavy equipment did
manage to screw up his Peugeo diesel pretty badly
by overheating it. It was his own fault, but if you
didn't know the car, it could definitely bite you.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:50:50 -0800 (PST), "TOG@Toil"
<totallydeadmailbox RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
>For many years, by far the best four-cylinder diesel engines came from
>Peugeot/Citroen (PSA) in France

There are a few Peugeot cars in the US, not many. The only Citroens I've seen
are 60s or early 70s models before any real air standards were developed. I
haven't seen any of those in years.

--
Jack
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Feb 13, 2:57 pm, "Dieseldes" <desm....TakeThisOut@orange.net> wrote:
> "Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message

> Having had and worked on Citroens and Peugoet for more years I can remember,
> I love the cars but hate working on them!!

My brother used to have a service business and would always
mumble something about having to pull a Peugeot rear axle
in order to change a U joint.

A bicycle mechanic tells me there's also a special non-standard
almost unobtainable cotter pin for French bicycles.

>
> stems reversed on the steering column, turn
>
> > signal on the right. People wonder why you're turning
> > on your wipers every time you make a turn.
>
> I drive a number of vehicles in a working week two Mitsibushi Canter, 2000
> model indicator on RHS and one 2004 indicator on the LHS boy does that make
> it confusing, all other vehicles Freelander, Merc. Man, Citroen, Iveco,
> Peugoet, VW all on the LHS and I can not think of any car european or not
> that now has it's Indicator stalk on yje RHS

Must have been a sad day for France when they changed over.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216128 DeleteThis @aol.com> writes
>
>Peugeot stopped importing to the U.S. maybe 20 years ago.
>I've owned a couple and would consider another one if
>it were available. Great suspension and very durable.
>Reportedly not too resistant to road salt.
>
My Father ran Citroens from the mid '80s until a couple of years ago.
Can't say any of them had corrosion problems - the first diesel BX was
fragile when thrashed, the next had a rev counter & was still pulling
happily at the redline. It was more robust than it's predecessor but
20mph slower... Since then I've been keen on either rev counters or rev
limiters

Only reason he stopped buying Citroen was that the C5 (the successor to
the Xantia he was replacing) was too big for the garage. The Renualts
that proceeded the Citroens did rot but not nearly as badly as the Fords
of the time.

>The problem with both Peugeot and Citroen is that French
>national pride demands that many things be done differently
>from the rest of the world, even if the rest of the world
>has a pretty reasonable way of doing things.
>
I can never make up my mind if it was French national pride or merely
Citroen's engineers answering questions that no-one was asking.
--
Bob Scott
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Feb 13, 5:36 pm, Jack Hunt <jhun....RemoveThis@tds.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:57:47 -0000, "Dieseldes" <desm....RemoveThis@orange.net> wrote:
> >My Citroen BX had warning lights on the dash for temperature , the amber one
> >was 'You are about to f***k your engine and the red one was 'too late!!'
>
> My daughter has a unique way of coping with warning lights. When the oil light
> came on in her 3.8L Ford Taurus, she stuck a picture of her boyfriend over it so
> the glare wouldn't bother her.

Our neighbor's kid responded by filling the
engine with water when the oil light came on.

My own daughter's really pretty good with tools
and mechanics in general. I never realized quite
how fortunate I was.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 04:38:51 -0500, Jack Hunt <jhunt1x.DeleteThis@tds.net>
wrote in <gde5r3tdsqk3eq6m713mlg30tb16q3g4bh.DeleteThis@4ax.com>:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:11:19 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid"
><Ivan.Reid.DeleteThis@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:

>> A Ford pick-me-up
>>went past, rattling like only an old diesel could. I checked and it was
>>a -56 or so plate. "Funny, I thought modern diesels were all common rail?"
>>Looks like it was an old US design, probably fully imported?

> As in a 1956 model? If so, it was something cobbled together in a
> garage somewhere. Diesel engines weren't available in Ford pickups in
> the US 52 years ago.

No, as Mark said, it's a 2006 or so registration. The Brits
are totally _anal_ about their "registration marks" -- to the extent that
"F1" recently sold for, IIRC, somewhere north of half-a-million quid
(that's a million bucks to you guys). You're allowed to transfer
"cherished" plates (i.e. custom) to newer vehicles; you are _not_ allowed
to put an age-related plate on a vehicle older than the age of the plate.

I don't know the full history of rego marks, but at some point
they were standardised (in GB, but not NI) to 3 letters/3 digits/1 letter,
the last letter changing each year. When they used up the alphabet they
changed to 1 letter/3 digits/3 letters. Through much (all?) of this,
leading zeroes were dropped from the 3 digits. Certain letters weren't
used for obvious reasons, esp. Os and Is.

There's also much prestige in having the "latest" plate, and the
change to the next letter was, I think, in August. This led to peaks in
sales as the plates changed, so the industry persuaded the Gov't to change
plates _twice_ a year, to stimulate car sales. This also led to the
alphabet running out more quickly. So, around 2000 the plate format
changed to 2 letters/two digits/three letters where the two digits were
the last two digits of the year for 6 months, and those digits plus 50 for
the other 6 months. Thus -56 is either Aug 06-Jan 07, or Feb 06-July 06
(approx). I can't remember which is which as I'm not a Brit and
registration marks are not something I wank over.

> I once saw a late 50s Chevy pickup with what sounded like a Peterbilt engine
> under the hood, a full size semi-truck engine and transmission had been grafted
> in.

--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
GSX600F, RG250WD "You Porsche. Me pass!" DoD #484 JKLO#003, 005
WP7# 3000 LC Unit #2368 (tinlc) UKMC#00009 BOTAFOT#16 UKRMMA#7 (Hon)
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:57:39 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid"
<Ivan.Reid.DeleteThis@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:

> No, as Mark said, it's a 2006 or so registration.

My father has a 2004 Ford 250 with a diesel. IIRC it's something around 6.8 or
6.9L with twin turbos. When empty, the tires cannot hope to connect that thing
to the road if you stick your foot in it. It's loud but not nearly as loud as
the '89 he had with a 7.3L. He gets about 15mpg when pulling the trailer. I
don't know what it gets empty.

He pulls an aluminum 5th wheel trailer with it. The trailer hauls 3 horses in
the back and has a fully equipped living quarters with a queen size bed in the
front. Aah, to be retired and living the dream. He's been retired since he was
62 and he turns 78 this year, still farming 120 acres. My mother is a year
younger. They have his and hers tractors.

>The Brits are totally _anal_ about their "registration marks"

It costs an extra $50 per year for customized plates in my county, and I refuse
to pay it. They give out new plates every other year, with new stickers in the
intervening years. We don't get a choice of what number we get, nor does anyone
seem to care.

--
Jack
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216128.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ff2d6d53-2cd4-4180-a811-d8cb97a5b5c6@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 13, 1:47 pm, Bob Scott <B....TakeThisOut@bobandaileen.co.uk> wrote:
>> Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216....TakeThisOut@aol.com> writes
>>
>> >Peugeot stopped importing to the U.S. maybe 20 years ago.
>> >I've owned a couple and would consider another one if
>> >it were available. Great suspension and very durable.
>> >Reportedly not too resistant to road salt.
>>
>> My Father ran Citroens from the mid '80s until a couple of years ago.
>> Can't say any of them had corrosion problems - the first diesel BX was
>> fragile when thrashed, the next had a rev counter & was still pulling
>> happily at the redline. It was more robust than it's predecessor but
>> 20mph slower... Since then I've been keen on either rev counters or rev
>> limiters
>>
>> Only reason he stopped buying Citroen was that the C5 (the successor to
>> the Xantia he was replacing) was too big for the garage. The Renualts
>> that proceeded the Citroens did rot but not nearly as badly as the Fords
>> of the time.
>>
>> >The problem with both Peugeot and Citroen is that French
>> >national pride demands that many things be done differently
>> >from the rest of the world, even if the rest of the world
>> >has a pretty reasonable way of doing things.
>>
>> I can never make up my mind if it was French national pride or merely
>> Citroen's engineers answering questions that no-one was asking.

Having had and worked on Citroens and Peugoet for more years I can remember,
I love the cars but hate working on them!!


stems reversed on the steering column, turn
> signal on the right. People wonder why you're turning
> on your wipers every time you make a turn.

I drive a number of vehicles in a working week two Mitsibushi Canter, 2000
model indicator on RHS and one 2004 indicator on the LHS boy does that make
it confusing, all other vehicles Freelander, Merc. Man, Citroen, Iveco,
Peugoet, VW all on the LHS and I can not think of any car european or not
that now has it's Indicator stalk on yje RHS


>
> Some of the other stuff like wet sleeve cylinders
> and small diameter radiator cores made lots of sense
> but could cause lots of grief when the car was tended
> to by people who weren't used to it's oddities.

As above hate working on them, though I love the quirkiness about French
cars Have a jap bike though!

>
> One guy I know who was used to heavy equipment did
> manage to screw up his Peugeo diesel pretty badly
> by overheating it. It was his own fault, but if you
> didn't know the car, it could definitely bite you.#

My Citroen BX had warning lights on the dash for temperature , the amber one
was 'You are about to f***k your engine and the red one was 'too late!!'
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:57:47 -0000, "Dieseldes" <desmond DeleteThis @orange.net> wrote:

>My Citroen BX had warning lights on the dash for temperature , the amber one
>was 'You are about to f***k your engine and the red one was 'too late!!'

My daughter has a unique way of coping with warning lights. When the oil light
came on in her 3.8L Ford Taurus, she stuck a picture of her boyfriend over it so
the glare wouldn't bother her.

I think I found the last spare 3.8 engine on the planet to replace it. They
only used them for 2 years in the US and most of them had warped heads. The
commonly available and fairly bulletproof 3.0L would not fit.

--
Jack
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On 13 Feb, 17:10, Mark Olson <ols....RemoveThis@tiny.invalid> wrote:
> TOG@Toil wrote:
> > For many years, by far the best four-cylinder diesel engines came from
> > Peugeot/Citroen (PSA) in France, probably because France always had a
> > big diesel market as the fuel used to carry much less tax than petrol
> > (it's still cheaper, but not by much). PSA turbodiesels, pre common
> > rail, were also used by Rover. Some think that France still makes
> > better smaller diesels than the other Europeans, and I tend to agree.
>
> The URL I posted previously would say that Ford agreed with you- according
> to it, the Ford 1.6 TDCi is a Pug engine.  I also liked the 1.6l diesel
> engine in the Peugeot 307 Estate I rented on the last Italian sortie.
> Not sure if it was the 90hp or 110hp version but regardless, it was a
> pleasure to drive.

I didn't actually know that Ford used PSA diesels! But it doesn't
surprise me. The French have simply been designing, building and
refining small diesel engines for longer than anyone else.
>
> Hopefully by the time I buy another newish car, something along these
> lines will be available in the USA.
>

Moving onto bikes, I would *love* to see a small turbodiesel engine
developed for a touring bike. Something maybe 1.2-1.4 litres,
producing perhaps 80-90bhp but with oodles of torque and the fuel
consumption of a 250cc bike, so giving a 350-400 mile range. Diesel
engines tend to look a bit of a plumber's nightmare, but hidden under
bodywork it shouldn't matter.

Years ago, BMW was rumoured to be considering a diesel version of the
K fours. I once tackled a BMW suit about it, but he denied they'd ever
done any work on it. I think I read somewhere that Honda is working on
a large diesel engined bike.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

>
> >The problem with both Peugeot and Citroen is that French
> >national pride demands that many things be done differently
> >from the rest of the world, even if the rest of the world
> >has a pretty reasonable way of doing things.
>
> I can never make up my mind if it was French national pride or merely
> Citroen's engineers answering questions that no-one was asking.

I'd tend towards the latter. Citroen has always been gloriously
'different' and sometimes incredibly advanced, except for that decade
from the late 1980s when they produced a series of incredibly
conventional and dull small cars.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US