Euro diesel reaches the US

"The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmailbox.DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote

> You're really not that bright, are you?
>

"we hold these truths to be self-evident",
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On 13 Feb, 09:11, "Dr Ivan D. Reid" <Ivan.R... RemoveThis @brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:07:46 +0000, The Older Gentleman
> <totallydeadmail... RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk>
>  wrote in <1ic3zs0.qij5ge1ib7e60N%totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7232357.stm
> > Quite interesting. Especially for Krusty, I have no doubt.
>
>         Ah, that explains a puzzle I had at the weekend.  A Ford pick-me-up
> went past, rattling like only an old diesel could.  I checked and it was
> a -56 or so plate.  "Funny, I thought modern diesels were all common rail?"
> Looks like it was an old US design, probably fully imported?
>

AFAIK, the CR diesel revolution hasn't reached the US yet, although
it's penetrating the truck market, given that virtually all (if not
actually all) US heavy truck brands are now owned by European
companies. That was the point of the original news item: European car
makers are trying to penetrate the US market.

I remember a Swede I once knew who had the US idea of a diesel car,
circa 1978. It was an Oldsmobile Cutlass something-or-other, which was
powered by a truck engine. Nothing more, nothing less. Extraordinary.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

The Older Gentleman <totallydeadmailbox.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The UK has been a net exporter for some 25-30 years, don't forget. Or as
> close to a balance as makes no difference. We have *never* had cheap
> fuel, unless you accept that in real purchasing terms, fuel has not got
> much pricier. Which it hasn't, over the years.
>
It seems that mindsets are calcified early and don't change fast. The UK
started as an oil importer and kept that mindset. The US started as an
oil exporter and has reflexively stuck to a "cheaper is better" view.

My father observed long ago that it was profoundly wasteful to burn for
fuel a feedstock so versatile as oil. Much better to make polymers out
of it. He was a rubber chemist. Eventually even us Americans will catch on.

bob prohaska
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

The Older Gentleman <totallydeadmailbox.DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I strongly suspect that the pricing of diesel engines has more to do
> with marketing and selective pricing than the actual build cost. But by
> and large, where there is an increase, it's minor.
>

Seems to me the build cost of a Diesel is guaranteed to be significantly
higher than an Otto-cycle engine. Developing a few hundred atmospheres
on a volume a few cubic millimeters repeatably and controllably ten times
per second or faster poses a severe problem for the injection designer.

Reliably generating a few tens of atmospheres compression with acceptable
angular momentum changes argues strongly for a very elaborate vibration
control scheme or a relatively heavy engine.

It may well be that Diesels, at least in the US, are overpriced. Still,
they present real physical challenges not matched by Otto designs.

bob prohaska
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

bob prohaska's usenet account <bp DeleteThis @www.zefox.net> wrote:

> My father observed long ago that it was profoundly wasteful to burn for
> fuel a feedstock so versatile as oil.

Wasn't it Mao who said much the same thing? Some demagogue, anyway.


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

bob prohaska's usenet account <bp RemoveThis @www.zefox.net> wrote:

> Seems to me the build cost of a Diesel is guaranteed to be significantly
> higher than an Otto-cycle engine. Developing a few hundred atmospheres
> on a volume a few cubic millimeters repeatably and controllably ten times
> per second or faster poses a severe problem for the injection designer.

Yes, and common rail injection is very sophisticated. Still, once
designed, it's not really any different from an ordinary FI system, is
it? Maybe a more powerful pump, and different injectors, but that's all
it is - fuel injection.

>
> Reliably generating a few tens of atmospheres compression with acceptable
> angular momentum changes argues strongly for a very elaborate vibration
> control scheme or a relatively heavy engine.

Diesels are heavier, yes. Diesel cars typically have slightly uprated
front suspension to cope, and some testers note the difference in
understeer between a diesel and alighter petrol engined car. So a little
bit more money for raw material?

>
> It may well be that Diesels, at least in the US, are overpriced. Still,
> they present real physical challenges not matched by Otto designs.

In their design, yes, I agree. But once design is finished and done
with, there's really not much difference in construction costs.


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:07:46 +0000, The Older Gentleman
<totallydeadmailbox RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk>
wrote in <1ic3zs0.qij5ge1ib7e60N%totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk>:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7232357.stm

> Quite interesting. Especially for Krusty, I have no doubt.

Ah, that explains a puzzle I had at the weekend. A Ford pick-me-up
went past, rattling like only an old diesel could. I checked and it was
a -56 or so plate. "Funny, I thought modern diesels were all common rail?"
Looks like it was an old US design, probably fully imported?

--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
GSX600F, RG250WD "You Porsche. Me pass!" DoD #484 JKLO#003, 005
WP7# 3000 LC Unit #2368 (tinlc) UKMC#00009 BOTAFOT#16 UKRMMA#7 (Hon)
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:11:19 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid"
<Ivan.Reid DeleteThis @brunel.ac.uk> wrote:

> A Ford pick-me-up
>went past, rattling like only an old diesel could. I checked and it was
>a -56 or so plate. "Funny, I thought modern diesels were all common rail?"
>Looks like it was an old US design, probably fully imported?

As in a 1956 model? If so, it was something cobbled together in a garage
somewhere. Diesel engines weren't available in Ford pickups in the US 52 years
ago.

I once saw a late 50s Chevy pickup with what sounded like a Peterbilt engine
under the hood, a full size semi-truck engine and transmission had been grafted
in.

--
Jack
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

Jack Hunt wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:11:19 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid"
> <Ivan.Reid DeleteThis @brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> A Ford pick-me-up
>> went past, rattling like only an old diesel could. I checked and it was
>> a -56 or so plate. "Funny, I thought modern diesels were all common rail?"
>> Looks like it was an old US design, probably fully imported?
>
> As in a 1956 model? If so, it was something cobbled together in a garage
> somewhere. Diesel engines weren't available in Ford pickups in the US 52 years
> ago.

No, ITYF that's limey-speak for a vehicle registered in 2006.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/32441.html

http://motortorque.askaprice.com/news/auto-0605/dvla-unveils-56-plates.asp

--
'01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On 13 Feb, 14:34, Jack Hunt <jhun... DeleteThis @tds.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:26:31 -0000, "Dieseldes" <desm... DeleteThis @orange.net> wrote:

There were a few diesel Ford Escorts sold but they
> never did well.  I don't know why.  Possibly because the rest of the car was so
> poorly constructed...
>
They did badly here, too, during the 1980s. Dreadful engines and the
rest of the car was as you describe.

For many years, by far the best four-cylinder diesel engines came from
Peugeot/Citroen (PSA) in France, probably because France always had a
big diesel market as the fuel used to carry much less tax than petrol
(it's still cheaper, but not by much). PSA turbodiesels, pre common
rail, were also used by Rover. Some think that France still makes
better smaller diesels than the other Europeans, and I tend to agree.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

TOG@Toil wrote:

> For many years, by far the best four-cylinder diesel engines came from
> Peugeot/Citroen (PSA) in France, probably because France always had a
> big diesel market as the fuel used to carry much less tax than petrol
> (it's still cheaper, but not by much). PSA turbodiesels, pre common
> rail, were also used by Rover. Some think that France still makes
> better smaller diesels than the other Europeans, and I tend to agree.

The URL I posted previously would say that Ford agreed with you- according
to it, the Ford 1.6 TDCi is a Pug engine. I also liked the 1.6l diesel
engine in the Peugeot 307 Estate I rented on the last Italian sortie.
Not sure if it was the 90hp or 110hp version but regardless, it was a
pleasure to drive.

Hopefully by the time I buy another newish car, something along these
lines will be available in the USA.

--
'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Feb 13, 11:30 am, Jack Hunt <jhun... DeleteThis @tds.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:50:50 -0800 (PST), "TOG@Toil"
>
> <totallydeadmail... DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >For many years, by far the best four-cylinder diesel engines came from
> >Peugeot/Citroen (PSA) in France
>
> There are a few Peugeot cars in the US, not many. The only Citroens I've seen
> are 60s or early 70s models before any real air standards were developed. I
> haven't seen any of those in years.

Peugeot stopped importing to the U.S. maybe 20 years ago.
I've owned a couple and would consider another one if
it were available. Great suspension and very durable.
Reportedly not too resistant to road salt.

The problem with both Peugeot and Citroen is that French
national pride demands that many things be done differently
from the rest of the world, even if the rest of the world
has a pretty reasonable way of doing things.

From a Cheech and Chong movie, Cheech under the car
on a crawler, nice blonde standing nest to it.

Blonde lady: I have a black Peugeot. Have you seen it ?

Cheech (looking up from under the car): No, I haven't,
but I knew you wasn't a natural blonde.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

"TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmailbox DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1bb40f64-fbe3-4f17-a982-bc1ff87686f2@b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On 13 Feb, 09:11, "Dr Ivan D. Reid" <Ivan.R... DeleteThis @brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:07:46 +0000, The Older Gentleman
> <totallydeadmail... DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote in <1ic3zs0.qij5ge1ib7e60N%totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk>:
>
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7232357.stm
> > Quite interesting. Especially for Krusty, I have no doubt.
>
> Ah, that explains a puzzle I had at the weekend. A Ford pick-me-up
> went past, rattling like only an old diesel could. I checked and it was
> a -56 or so plate. "Funny, I thought modern diesels were all common rail?"
> Looks like it was an old US design, probably fully imported?
>

AFAIK, the CR diesel revolution hasn't reached the US yet, although
it's penetrating the truck market, given that virtually all (if not
actually all) US heavy truck brands are now owned by European
companies. That was the point of the original news item: European car
makers are trying to penetrate the US market.

I remember a Swede I once knew who had the US idea of a diesel car,
circa 1978. It was an Oldsmobile Cutlass something-or-other, which was
powered by a truck engine. Nothing more, nothing less. Extraordinary.

Was there not a GM V8 diesel, I am sure I looked at it as a conversion for a
petrol RangeRover, and that was the mid 80's when I couldn't live with
<16mpg.
I also suspect that engine was alloy and had a history of cracking heads?

Des
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US