Euro diesel reaches the US

Jack Hunt wrote:

> ... until GWB kicked his ass in the election.

LOL!
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

.. wrote:

> On Feb 11, 12:20�pm, Beryl <flyingterra....TakeThisOut@chillybits.org> wrote:
>
>
>>The oceans are a big carbon buffer. What suddenly happens when a solvent
>>reaches the saturation point?
>
>
> Coral reefs expel their algae and die?

I dunno. Coral want colder water, the heat kills them, no?

I was thinking along the lines of sugar dissolving in a glass of water.
Stir in more, and more, and more, and all of a sudden it sinks to the
bottom of the glass and won't dissolve any more. Well it will, but
molecules precipitate right back out as fast as they go in.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

"The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmailbox.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1ic4xfp.wcsfqm1m4j27cN%totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk...
> LJ <laremoDelete.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Due in part, to our more stringent
>> pollution standards,
>
> A dmodern diesel engine, like a European diesel, is less poluting than a
> petrol engine. Less NOX, less CO2 and (with a particulate trap fitted)
> less particulates too.
Correct, but this hasn't been true in the past

>
>> there hasn't been a wide selection of diesel
>> automobiles. Couple that with the lack of government subsidies that
>> exist
>> in the European countries where diesels are the most popular and it isn't
>> economical to buy diesels.
>
> Diesel cars and diesel fuel are *not* subsidised in Europe. Where did
> you get this nonsense from? It *is* slightly cheaper in some countries
due largely to different tax rates for diesel, ergo subsidized. Germany,
Spain and other countries have also allowed tax benefits for diesel owners
until recently, I'm not sure if the same is still true. As to the cost
difference, I read that there was a premiun for diesel Beemers, but not as
great as the typical difference here. However, if economies of scale have
been achieved, then there is no reason why they would charge such a high
premiun here

> than petrol, and it is a fair bit cheaper in a few, but it is definitely
> not subsidised. It presently costs £1.10/litre in the UK, for example,
> and about euro1.20/litre in France and Germany.
>
>> You can't save enough on fuel that costs 20%
>> more than petrol to recoup the $2500 premium for the engine.
>
> Depends how pricey the fuel is to begin with. At our rates, you can.
> Maybe not in the US. And there is no premium for diesel engines in
> Europe, not any more, because we make so many of them. The economies of
> scale are there.
>
>> If someone
>> would offer a package that made economical sense, most of the real or
>> perceived "soft" objections would disappear.
>
> See above.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:28:13 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin.TakeThisOut@chillybits.org> wrote:

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore
>
>Scroll down, find the little section titled *Environmental issues*

I'll wait until you provide a reputable source. Surely you know that he could
have written that himself.

Even then I probably won't read your source. I've been watching Mr. Gore for
probably longer than you've been alive, since he got back from playing
soldier/reporter/pothead. He still hasn't done anything to impress me.

--
Jack
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

Jack Hunt wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:28:13 -0800, Beryl <flyingterrapin.DeleteThis@chillybits.org> wrote:
>
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore
>>
>>Scroll down, find the little section titled *Environmental issues*
>
>
> I'll wait until you provide a reputable source. Surely you know that he could
> have written that himself.

I'm afraid there are no reputable sources. Because Al not only invented
the internet, you know, he wrote all of it.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

The Older Gentleman <totallydeadmailbox RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I hate to say it, but the US dependence on dirt-cheap fuel has *got* to
> change, because you are out of step with the rest of the world. And the
> rest of the world is not going to slash its taxes on fuel. You are going
> to have to raise yours.
>

Dunno about the *got*, but it very likely _will_ change, simply because
fuel is no longer dirt cheap. I personally concur, the US will benefit by
a gradual increase in fuel taxes. However, a great deal of capital investment
was made predicated on low transportation costs. Those folks will not readily
agree with our foregone conclusion.

The US enjoyed a hefty advantage by being an oil-exporting country for
close to half a century. The mindset will take some time to adjust.

bob prohaska
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

bob prohaska's usenet account <bp.DeleteThis@www.zefox.net> wrote:

> Dunno about the *got*,

Yes, agreed.

>but it very likely _will_ change, simply because
> fuel is no longer dirt cheap.

True

>I personally concur, the US will benefit by
> a gradual increase in fuel taxes. However, a great deal of capital investment
> was made predicated on low transportation costs. Those folks will not readily
> agree with our foregone conclusion.

I am *sure* you are right.
>
> The US enjoyed a hefty advantage by being an oil-exporting country for
> close to half a century. The mindset will take some time to adjust.

I think you're right again. Although the US has been a net importer
for... what, 30-odd years?

The UK has been a net exporter for some 25-30 years, don't forget. Or as
close to a balance as makes no difference. We have *never* had cheap
fuel, unless you accept that in real purchasing terms, fuel has not got
much pricier. Which it hasn't, over the years.


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 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

.. <RhiannonX RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> Craziest thing you've ever said.

Why? Face up: the US must realise that the era of cheap energy is over,
and that if you want to conserve supplies and reduce CO2 emissions, the
best way (for vehicles) is to tax heavy use.

That promotes (a) the building of more efficient vehicles and (b) less
vehicle use anyway.
>
<snip>
>
> State + federal tax total 62.8 cents per gallon

About 33 UK pence. Peanuts.


--
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chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

LJ <laremoDelete.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Diesel cars and diesel fuel are *not* subsidised in Europe. Where did
> > you get this nonsense from? It *is* slightly cheaper in some countries
> due largely to different tax rates for diesel, ergo subsidized.

Do you actually know what the word 'subsidy' means? You are still
talking nonsense.

>Germany,
> Spain and other countries have also allowed tax benefits for diesel owners
> until recently, I'm not sure if the same is still true. As to the cost
> difference, I read that there was a premiun for diesel Beemers, but not as
> great as the typical difference here.

It depends how you look at it. Take the Jaguar S-Type (first luxury
diesel car whose UK prices I could find in a hurry). The 3.0 litre V6
petrol is £32085. The 2.7 litre diesel is exactly the same price, but in
a slightly lower spec. So there is a price difference, buit it's very
minor.


> However, if economies of scale have
> been achieved, then there is no reason why they would charge such a high
> premiun here

This is true. The luxury cars still tend to use petrolk more than
diesel. Where you have more mass-market ranges, the percentage of diesel
ownership is far higher. Take Ford, for example - the 1.6 turbodiesel,
again, is actually *cheaper* than the petrol, but again, it's
lower-specced.

If you compare it spec-for-spec, it's about £500 pricier, but then its
performance figures in 'normal' driving (ie: mid-range power and torque,
which is where diesels really score) is better than the petrol. Put it
against the slightly larger 1.8 and there's no price difference.

I strongly suspect that the pricing of diesel engines has more to do
with marketing and selective pricing than the actual build cost. But by
and large, where there is an increase, it's minor.


--
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BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

The Older Gentleman wrote:
> Dieseldes <desmond.RemoveThis@orange.net> wrote:
<snip>
> You guys are used to paying peanuts for fuel, because the tax is low and
> your entire infrastructure is built around cheap energy. The price of
> oil doubles and so, damn nearly, does your price of fuel.

True but much more complicated and maybe even a bit more sinister then
that. I don't know what we do currently in California but IIRC at one
time we produced something in the range of 40-80% of the worlds oil
supply. That is, even more then Texas which is known for oil production.
I believe we still produce something like 70% of the oil we consume.

We pay ~the highest price in the nation for gas. => When something
happens in the Middle East, our local oil producers get a bonus that
doesn't reflect the cost of raw materials or production. I seriously
doubt if we see any Middle East oil on the left coast. Matter of fact we
export Alaskan oil to the Far East.

Consumers/nations tend to use the supply closest to them. The price and
availability of Middle East oil has more direct effect on Europe.
>
> OTOH, because 80% of the price of a UK gallon of fuel is tax, the actual
> oil component is fairly small. We are completely used and conditioned to
> working on expensive fuel (one reason why the European, and especially
> UK, haulage industry is about the most efficient in the world).

I'm not a conspiracy nut, just a nut plain and simple. Governments are
in the business of being self perpetuating. They stick the populous with
whatever taxes they can get away with. For example a statement that was
made that seemed to get more press in the UK then the USA:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/tax/article1996735.ece

UK gets news about how relatively unfair the USA system is. Here, we
hear about your high taxes and terrible<sic> health care system. We
should all really be more pissed off.

Rick
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

On Feb 12, 8:15�am, "TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmail....TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> You're not really that bright, are you? It can be argued that all
> waste is sinful, but I won't. I'll just say that the rest of the world
> (except you) seems to agree that we must cut emissions and the
> squandering of non-renewable energy sources.

Cite where I ever said that we shouldn't reduce emissions.

> As for "the majority of
> drivers cannot afford to fuel their vehicles" - this is nonsense, even
> for you.

I wouldn't be buying very much gasoline if my dear Uncle Sam wasn't
filling up my bank account every month. As it is, I'm spending an
appalling amount of money to amuse myself by driving my Jeep around
the Sierras, and the federal + state taxes on that fuel amounts to
about 20% per gallon.

And you're saying that paying 80% tax on every gallon of fuel is
somehow a "good thing" because it discourages unnecessary driving.

If gasoline taxes jumped that high over here, I'd be riding a bicycle
and most people would be trying to sell their cars. But there wouldn't
be any buyers.
>
> No. I am doing what I can to reduce my vehicle use. I sold a fuel-
> guzzling Saab and bought an economical diesel car. I use a small 125
> for running around London instead of a bigger bike.

Besides, you don't have to pay the fee to enter Central London if you
ride the motorbike. What is it, �5 a day?

> I don't actually object to fuel taxation.

What would it matter if you did? Would you demonstrate outside of
Parliament?
Would your government suddenly drop the taxes because you didn't like
it?

> I frequently wonder how you manage to come up with these leaps of non-
> logic that you maintain are self-evident truths.

If you ever see me use the phrase, "we hold these truths to be self-
evident", I'm talking about Thomas Jefferson and his use of
misunderstood language that follows.
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

Rick Cortese <ricortes.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:

> True but much more complicated and maybe even a bit more sinister then
> that. I don't know what we do currently in California but IIRC at one
> time we produced something in the range of 40-80% of the worlds oil
> supply.

Of course. Mind you, that was when your production was at its peak and
world demand was a fraction of today's.

>That is, even more then Texas which is known for oil production.
> I believe we still produce something like 70% of the oil we consume.

Sounds realistic. I don't know the exact figures, but I do know the US
is a net importer now, whereas it used to be a net exporter.

>
<snip>
>
> I'm not a conspiracy nut, just a nut plain and simple. Governments are
> in the business of being self perpetuating. They stick the populous with
> whatever taxes they can get away with.

Agree 100%

>For example a statement that was
> made that seemed to get more press in the UK then the USA:
> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/tax/article1996735.ece

Interesting, that.
>
> UK gets news about how relatively unfair the USA system is. Here, we
> hear about your high taxes and terrible<sic> health care system. We
> should all really be more pissed off.

Heh. Very true.

--
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BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US 

"LJ" <laremoDelete RemoveThis @yahoo.com> writes:

> "The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmailbox RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1ic4xfp.wcsfqm1m4j27cN%totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk...
>> Diesel cars and diesel fuel are *not* subsidised in Europe. Where did
>> you get this nonsense from? It *is* slightly cheaper in some countries
> due largely to different tax rates for diesel, ergo subsidized. Germany,
> Spain and other countries have also allowed tax benefits for diesel owners
> until recently,

Unless something has changed recently, the "tax benefit" in Germany was
that you paid a little less for Diesel compared to petrol.

However, the yearly taxes on vehicles are calculated based on engine
displacement and fuel type. Diesel engines, unsurprisingly, attract a
noticeably higher tax (something between 50% to 75% more IIRC). To break
even, it used to be that you needed to do about 20k+ miles/year at
least. However, the average mileage is/was only about 6k-8k miles/year.

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 >> Stay informed about: Euro diesel reaches the US