Are Electronic Killing the Sport?

On Aug 21, 11:09 am, "T3" <noth....TakeThisOut@nowhere.net> wrote:
> "YTK" <y....TakeThisOut@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:46caccdb$0$16528$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> > Are tires the only variable left to the rider/team decision? Electronics
> > are inevitable (or are they). American baseball has kept them out of the
> > ball/strike calling, and I believe electronics would be more accurate
> > there, but less fun. I know these riders are skilled beyond my
> > comprehension and I don't want them hurt but maybe it is time to get back
> > to the rider making the total throttle decision in the corner.
>
> While I have always to embrace new technology(sorta') and did with TC too, I
> am beginnig to feel it takes something from the show, but once it was out of
> the box I really don't know if it's possible to put it back..

It may not have been in the box to begin with. The reason why F1 and,
more recently, AMA and other bike series have allowed traction control
is because it's become all but impossible to police it. For a few
years now (before traction control was allowed), there were all kinds
of rumors going around about this or that team. But what happens when
a team is cheating or even if they're playing by the book and trying
to find a loophole, is they're spending tremendous resources on trying
to invent a "fake" traction control system that most likely runs off
something silly like lean angle and throttle opening inputs instead of
actually measuring differences in wheel speeds. When you get to that
point, you might as well let it go and let them develop the real thing
and benefit the industry with the trickle-down effect.

> > I've been kind of a lurker in this NG for a long time and respect many of
> > your opinions. So, while electronics are not a "cut and dried" solution
> > are they, over all, good, bad or indifferent?
>
> Electronic engine controls are here to stay, that's a given and traction
> control for the street is something that's good and coming in the near
> future as well, but I'm not so sure it's long term effects will be good for
> racing..

I'm still not sure what's gonna happen exactly. I'd break the whole
sport riding population into 3 groups: pro or semi-pro racers, amateur
racers and serious track riders, and predominantly street riders. The
last group of course comprises the vast majority of the economy as
well as head count. And I think those riders are actually the least
likely ones to benefit from traction control. How often do you see
people highsiding on the street?

Even novice club racers don't learn to ride the rear hard until their
second season usually. A typical new racer will try to do everything
on the brakes, because that's what translates from the street the most
in terms of performance riding. As far as the pro's, I'd say there's
no question they're benefiting from traction control, but it can also
hurt the show if one team nails it and the others are playing catch-
up. To me, it'll be really interesting to see what happens in the
clubs, both because there will be a transitional period while some
people have traction control and some will not, as well as because the
technology is going to give us an extra "dial" to play with. A good
race-applicable traction control system will probably be treated much
like fuel injection tuning is treated now. A lot of people will go to
a professional to get it set up, and some, more serious folks, will go
through the trouble of playing with the settings at the track with a
laptop in hand. For sure, we're in for a few exciting years before
the dust settles and traction control becomes as mundane as the myriad
aftermarket fuel injection controllers.
 >> Stay informed about: Are Electronic Killing the Sport? 

Found an interesting article in an unexpected publication...

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201500163

For whst it matters, I think it's simple: as the power war increases,
electronics become mandatory to help tame the machines. Something's got to
give for the sake of some balance, and it should not be the riders'
bodies...

One could equally argue that horsepower increases are killing the sport. Or
better tires.The thing kis o singular improvement is probably explotable
without electronics kicking i - they've just become oe more part of the
engineering war, and just because they haven't traditionally been something
we associate with motorcycles (mind you I've had ABS bikes for 10 years)
doesn't mean they're not equally valid.
 >> Stay informed about: Are Electronic Killing the Sport? 

Alexey wrote:
>> "YTK" wrote

> It may not have been in the box to begin with. The reason why F1 and,
> more recently, AMA and other bike series have allowed traction control
> is because it's become all but impossible to police it. For a few
> years now (before traction control was allowed), there were all kinds
> of rumors going around about this or that team. But what happens when
> a team is cheating or even if they're playing by the book and trying
> to find a loophole, is they're spending tremendous resources on trying
> to invent a "fake" traction control system that most likely runs off
> something silly like lean angle and throttle opening inputs instead of
> actually measuring differences in wheel speeds. When you get to that
> point, you might as well let it go and let them develop the real thing
> and benefit the industry with the trickle-down effect.
>
>>> I've been kind of a lurker in this NG for a long time and respect many of
>>> your opinions. So, while electronics are not a "cut and dried" solution
>>> are they, over all, good, bad or indifferent?
>> Electronic engine controls are here to stay, that's a given and traction
>> control for the street is something that's good and coming in the near
>> future as well, but I'm not so sure it's long term effects will be good for
>> racing..
>
> I'm still not sure what's gonna happen exactly. I'd break the whole
> sport riding population into 3 groups: pro or semi-pro racers, amateur
> racers and serious track riders, and predominantly street riders. The
> last group of course comprises the vast majority of the economy as
> well as head count. And I think those riders are actually the least
> likely ones to benefit from traction control. How often do you see
> people highsiding on the street?

The ultimate street application of this technology is really in
question, I think. The notion of TC to help street riders when they run
over an oil patch, sand and gravel, or in the rain makes some sense, I
suppose, but I suspect most people have problems related to the front
end or under braking, and not so much the rear under acceleration. And
then think about the idea of street riders relying on TC in the manner
of MotoGP guys today, whacking open the throttle early on in a corner
and totally relying on the system to manage grip. Some of those people
are inevitably going to end up in a wheelchair on in a pine box, and law
suits against the OEMs would follow. So I really can't see that sort of
thing on the street, rather maybe some sort of safety margin that can't
entirely be relied on (and therefore only comes into play once the rider
has made an obvious error), or maybe nothing at all.

But it seems unlikely to ever be outlawed in GP, where the whole notion
of prototypes is the development of technology. More likely might be the
return to bigger, more powerful motors, which make the racing better
even with the electronic controls (or in part because of them). There is
certainly a group of riders in GP that would favor that sooner rather
than later, including Stoner. In WSB there's talk of a control control
unit, as it were, to eliminate TC. That makes a lot of sense if it can
be effectively policed that way, but I'm not sure it can. And if TC in
some form hits the streets, how can they keep it out of SB? Especially
if it's accepted in SS?

On thing's for sure, GP is a lot safer with TC than it was on the old
500s...
 >> Stay informed about: Are Electronic Killing the Sport? 

"Alexey" <inline_four DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1187720448.098719.251970@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> It may not have been in the box to begin with. The reason why F1 and,
> more recently, AMA and other bike series have allowed traction control
> is because it's become all but impossible to police it. For a few
> years now (before traction control was allowed), there were all kinds
> of rumors going around about this or that team. But what happens when
> a team is cheating or even if they're playing by the book and trying
> to find a loophole, is they're spending tremendous resources on trying
> to invent a "fake" traction control system that most likely runs off
> something silly like lean angle and throttle opening inputs instead of
> actually measuring differences in wheel speeds. When you get to that
> point, you might as well let it go and let them develop the real thing
> and benefit the industry with the trickle-down effect.

Full blown TC was NOT out of the box here prior to Proracing's blessing last
year, sure, there were teams using engine mgmt controls to emulate real
TC,(stealthy stuff, if you will) but there wasn't a front wheel sensor to be
fround and without info from the front you really don't have true TC. Rules
tell you what you can't do, not so much what you can and it's the team's job
to exploit any and all to the benefit of their cause, so saying someone is
cheating might be a little inaccurate. In any event and at this point, I'm
not so sure TC is something that is going to make racing in this country
better show-wise, yes, it'll prolly save a bunch of high sides, but does it
actually help the show? Time will tell..
>
>> > I've been kind of a lurker in this NG for a long time and respect many
>> > of
>> > your opinions. So, while electronics are not a "cut and dried" solution
>> > are they, over all, good, bad or indifferent?
>>
>> Electronic engine controls are here to stay, that's a given and traction
>> control for the street is something that's good and coming in the near
>> future as well, but I'm not so sure it's long term effects will be good
>> for
>> racing..
>
> I'm still not sure what's gonna happen exactly. I'd break the whole
> sport riding population into 3 groups: pro or semi-pro racers, amateur
> racers and serious track riders, and predominantly street riders. The
> last group of course comprises the vast majority of the economy as
> well as head count. And I think those riders are actually the least
> likely ones to benefit from traction control. How often do you see
> people highsiding on the street?

Trust me on this, it happens and though I'm a little dubious on the real
world, or street applications of TC, it's coming, but, more than likely part
of a larger engine mgmt package..

>
> Even novice club racers don't learn to ride the rear hard until their
> second season usually. A typical new racer will try to do everything
> on the brakes, because that's what translates from the street the most
> in terms of performance riding. As far as the pro's, I'd say there's
> no question they're benefiting from traction control, but it can also
> hurt the show if one team nails it and the others are playing catch-
> up. To me, it'll be really interesting to see what happens in the
> clubs, both because there will be a transitional period while some
> people have traction control and some will not, as well as because the
> technology is going to give us an extra "dial" to play with. A good
> race-applicable traction control system will probably be treated much
> like fuel injection tuning is treated now. A lot of people will go to
> a professional to get it set up, and some, more serious folks, will go
> through the trouble of playing with the settings at the track with a
> laptop in hand. For sure, we're in for a few exciting years before
> the dust settles and traction control becomes as mundane as the myriad
> aftermarket fuel injection controllers.

I agree with most of that and will follow that TC won't be a big deal in the
future, it'll prolly be taken for granted just like self cancelling turn
signals are today, that said, they don't use turn signals in racing...

With the power engines generate these days traction/throttle control is not
unlike gun control, they both need a knowing, if not cautious hand and given
the present state of the art, I'm not so sure a black box has that wisdom,
but we'll see...
 >> Stay informed about: Are Electronic Killing the Sport?