Ducati shopping

On Feb 21, 9:10 am, Bob Mann <B... DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:11:43 -0800 (PST), saddlebag
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> <saddle... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
> >On Feb 21, 1:06 am, Tim <ct.mor... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Feb 20, 8:53 pm, saddlebag <saddle... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
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> >> > On Feb 20, 9:07 am, Bob Mann <B... DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
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> >> > > On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 07:17:41 -0600, Mark Olson <ols... DeleteThis @tiny.invalid>
> >> > > wrote:
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> >> > > >saddlebag wrote:
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> >> > > >> OK, if he's doing surgery, maybe DIY doesn't make quite as much
> >> > > >> sense.  Though it makes about as much sense as me buying a $3k box of
> >> > > >> shims and $500 belt tensioner and spend a week of free time doing
> >> > > >> something I can pay someone a few hundred bucks to do.  I might have
> >> > > >> to spring for one of them Pit Bulls though.
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> >> > > >Once again, I find myself agreeing with you- on the specific point that
> >> > > >DIY surgery would be pretty dumb.  However, you present an implied false
> >> > > >dichotomy.  Choosing to do a service on your own Ducati does not mean
> >> > > >spending a week of free time, buying a $3k box of shims and a $500 belt
> >> > > >tensioner.
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> >> > > >Again, where _do_ you dig this stuff out of?  On second thought, I
> >> > > >suppose I really don't want to know.
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> >> > > It's an all or nothing, black and white world isn't it?
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> >> > No Bob, working on bikes doesn't require any tool or time investment.
> >> > It's obvious that I was wrong to make such a suggestion.  Sorry for my
> >> > transgression.  Now go degrease your hands before dinner.
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> >> You see a reasonable man, making a reasonable argument.  If someone
> >> says that you don't need $3,000 worth of shims and a $500 special tool
> >> to perform a service on a Ducati, they obviously MEANT that you don;t
> >> need any tools or any time to do any work on any bike.
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> >> Seems reasonable to me.
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> >No, Bob considered it a "black or white" issue for me to bring time
> >and recommended tools into the discussion.  I was only being
> >reasonable by conceding the point.  He is free to renegotiate at any
> >time of his choosing.
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> >It's interesting that you find Bob's "black or white" characterization
> >of my argument, the guy who usually does his own work, but sometimes
> >takes it to the shop when the job is at best break even proposition,
> >reasonable.
>
> >You see Timsey, whatever position I take ends up giving you
> >heartburn.  And that's just unreasonable and if left untreated could
> >result in esophageal cancer.
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> You were intimating that you couldn't work on your own bike,
> specifically a Ducati, unless you made some enormous investment in
> tools and certain parts.

Not that I *couldn't* work on my bike. I'm willing to bet I've
disrobed ST Ducatis as many times as anyone on the planet. But yes
there are certain jobs that if done by the book require a lot of up
front tooling costs. And if there is no savings to be gained, I'll
gladly hand it off to a pro. I have no shade tree mechanic's code of
honor to uphold.

> This in response to those who said they had done plenty without that
> investment.

I never said they lied.

> For you it was either take it to the dealer or spends a bikes worth on
> parts and tools.

Because I would chose to do the job by the book.

> No middle ground.

Not where my beloved Desmos are at risk.

Regardless, you make a specious point here. There really is no gray
area, either I do the work myself or I give it to someone else to do.
The choices are pretty black & white. Trying to paint me as some
conservative blowhard where there is only good or evil based on this
discussion is ludicrous.

> That's why I said black or white, all or nothing.
> I really shouldn't have to explain this to you. Others understood.

Other's took your comment and diverged into Asian religions,
mysticism, and all other assorted nonsense. Only Timsey jumped on
your bandwagon. But to his ears, criticizing me is like ringing a
Pavlovian bell.

On Feb 21, 1:34 pm, Tim <ct.mor....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 21, 11:34 am, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use....RemoveThis@cox.net> wrote:
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> > saddlebag wrote:
> > > On Feb 20, 6:03 pm, Tim <ct.mor....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On Feb 20, 5:55 pm, saddlebag <saddle....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> On Feb 20, 8:17 am, Mark Olson <ols....RemoveThis@tiny.invalid> wrote:
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> > >>>> saddlebag wrote:
> > >>>>> OK, if he's doing surgery, maybe DIY doesn't make quite as much
> > >>>>> sense. Though it makes about as much sense as me buying a $3k
> > >>>>> box
> > >>>>> of shims and $500 belt tensioner and spend a week of free time
> > >>>>> doing something I can pay someone a few hundred bucks to do. I
> > >>>>> might have to spring for one of them Pit Bulls though.
>
> > >>>> Once again, I find myself agreeing with you- on the specific
> > >>>> point
> > >>>> that DIY surgery would be pretty dumb. However, you present an
> > >>>> implied false dichotomy. Choosing to do a service on your own
> > >>>> Ducati does not mean spending a week of free time, buying a $3k
> > >>>> box of shims and a $500 belt tensioner.
>
> > >>>> Again, where _do_ you dig this stuff out of?
>
> > >>> A service manual.
>
> > >> Interesting. I've been riding and working on my own Ducatis since
> > >> 1986. I have bought and owned a number of Ducati special tools over
> > >> the years, and at one time had quite the collection of shims for
> > >> the
> > >> bevel-drive v-twins (I owned three of them over the years).
>
> > >> And yet, never have I needed a $3,000 set of shims in order to
> > >> inspect or adjust the valves on any of my Ducatis, nor have I
> > >> needed
> > >> a $500 belt tensioner, and I can't for the life of me remember ANY
> > >> of my service manuals directing me to purchase those items prior to
> > >> servicing any of my Ducatis.
>
> > > Really?  My Haynes manual has quite an extensive list of tools.  I
> > > barely scratched the surface.  To be fair they do list a method of
> > > tensioning the belts without a tensioner, but qualify it by stating
> > > "If this method is used, ensure that belt tension is measured with a
> > > belt tensioning guage at the earliest possible opportunity."  And I
> > > suppose you can order and wait for shims to come in from Italy (and
> > > if
> > > Mark thinks that's less than a weeks worth time he's never dealt
> > > with
> > > the life loving Italians in the summertime).  Otherwise, you get
> > > yourself a set of all possible sizes.  Last time I checked a silly
> > > box
> > > of them was ~$3k if memory serves.
>
> > Well, now, it seems to me that if you can't go down to the dealer and
> > buy the shims then the dealer has to wait for them to come from Italy
> > too, so you've got the same downtime either way, unless he's the kind
> > of asshat who won't sell you parts.
>
> I hang out with a large group of Ducati Monster owners and riders.  My
> race sponsor is a franchised Ducati dealer.  One of my best friends
> was a franchised Ducati dealer for 19 years (he's an independent
> now).  Not once in all the years I've owned Ducatis, known these
> folks, ridden and wrenched and built racebikes and customized Ducatis,
> not once have I ever heard of anyone ever having their Ducati laid up
> because of a lack of an available valve shim.  Not once.   Oh, I had
> to wait two weeks once for a complete throttle body assembly for a
> brand new model with a brand new FI system that had a bad TPS sensor,
> but never for shims.   And I don't know a single Ducati enthusiast -
> even those who build their own engines - who owns a complete factory
> set of shims.

So they just fudge it when they don't have the proper size?