Cylinder Re-Plating question

On Feb 6, 12:44 pm, Wudsracer <dirtbike_smackoverRem... DeleteThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:06:03 -0800 (PST), Tim H <tntharr... DeleteThis @msn.com> wrote:
> >I recently had the cylinder of my GasGas EC300 replated. When I
> >received the cylinder back, I was quite suprised at how badly etched/
> >pitted the gasket sealing surfaces of the cylinder were. The head,
> >base, exhaust, and reed block surfaces are rough as hell, looking like
> >they were heavily over sand-blasted, or like a really rough as-cast
> >surface from a sand casting. Maybe I expected too much, but I thought
> >surfaces like that would be masked for protection, or refinished, or
> >something. As it is, I'm seriously concerned about the ability of
> >these surfaces to seal when the motor is reassembled.
> >Anybody have experience with replating cylinders? Did the sealing
> >surfaces come back looking really rough, or like you'd expect sealing
> >surfaces to appear?
>
> >Tim H
>
> ******************************
>
> Tim,
>   I've never had that happen to one of my cylinders when they replated
> them.
>   Normally, the process consists of an acid bath to remove the ceramic
> composite cylinder bore material, and then a re-plate and clean-up of
> the part. After that, they will hone the cylinder to fit the new
> piston that will be used in the fresh top end.
>   The only thing that looks "rough" is the crosshatch pattern where
> the cylinder was honed.
>
>   I'd have to speak with the replating company, if it were mine, and
> at least give them a chance to machine or build up and machine the
> now-rough mating surfaces.
>
>   Who did this job?

I believe it was Millenium. This was the cylinder Jack sent me a
loaner for back in July, which I didn't get back until sometime in
November. Comparing it to the cylinder in the KTMtalk link below, my
actual cylinder plating looks better, but the rest of the surfaces
looked etched to death, including a big notch/crack in the cylinder
"skirt" at the front side of the cylinder that wasn't there before,
but looks like some of the chasms on the KTM cylinder pictured. I
believe what happened to his cylinder and mine was they were left in
the etch tank for too long, and the etchant attacked the base material
anywhere there were casting flaws or inclusions. I'm goping to try to
get some clean photos when I get home and see if I can post them to
RBPM or just send 'em to you.
I think the ruined my cylinder.

Tim H
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

On Feb 6, 1:45 pm, dsc-ky <Dudley.Corn... DeleteThis @eku.edu> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 3:44 pm, Wudsracer <dirtbike_smackoverRem... DeleteThis @yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > >On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:06:03 -0800 (PST), Tim H <tntharr... DeleteThis @msn.com> wrote:
> > >I recently had the cylinder of my GasGas EC300 replated. When I
> > >received the cylinder back, I was quite suprised at how badly etched/
> > >pitted the gasket sealing surfaces of the cylinder were. The head,
> > >base, exhaust, and reed block surfaces are rough as hell, looking like
> > >they were heavily over sand-blasted, or like a really rough as-cast
> > >surface from a sand casting. Maybe I expected too much, but I thought
> > >surfaces like that would be masked for protection, or refinished, or
> > >something. As it is, I'm seriously concerned about the ability of
> > >these surfaces to seal when the motor is reassembled.
> > >Anybody have experience with replating cylinders? Did the sealing
> > >surfaces come back looking really rough, or like you'd expect sealing
> > >surfaces to appear?
>
> > >Tim H
>
> > ******************************
>
> > Tim,
> >   I've never had that happen to one of my cylinders when they replated
> > them.
> >   Normally, the process consists of an acid bath to remove the ceramic
> > composite cylinder bore material, and then a re-plate and clean-up of
> > the part. After that, they will hone the cylinder to fit the new
> > piston that will be used in the fresh top end.
> >   The only thing that looks "rough" is the crosshatch pattern where
> > the cylinder was honed.
>
> >   I'd have to speak with the replating company, if it were mine, and
> > at least give them a chance to machine or build up and machine the
> > now-rough mating surfaces.
>
> >   Who did this job?
>
> >          Wudsracer/Jim Cook
> >           Smackover Racing
> >          '06 Gas Gas DE300
> >         '82 Husqvarna XC250
> >            Team LAGNAF
>
> Check this one out from KTMTalk.com
>
> http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=241573&hl=- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ugly, but I can play in that game. I'll try for pics later this
afternoon.

Tim H
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

On Feb 6, 3:06 pm, Tim H <tntharr....TakeThisOut@msn.com> wrote:
> I recently had the cylinder of my GasGas EC300 replated. When I
> received the cylinder back, I was quite suprised at how badly etched/
> pitted the gasket sealing surfaces of the cylinder were. The head,
> base, exhaust, and reed block surfaces are rough as hell, looking like
> they were heavily over sand-blasted, or like a really rough as-cast
> surface from a sand casting. Maybe I expected too much, but I thought
> surfaces like that would be masked for protection, or refinished, or
> something. As it is, I'm seriously concerned about the ability of
> these surfaces to seal when the motor is reassembled.
> Anybody have experience with replating cylinders? Did the sealing
> surfaces come back looking really rough, or like you'd expect sealing
> surfaces to appear?
>
> Tim H


Further reinforcing what others have said, I had my KDX cylinder done
a few years back and those surfaces looked no different than original.

Craig
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

>On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:06:03 -0800 (PST), Tim H <tntharrell DeleteThis @msn.com> wrote:

>I recently had the cylinder of my GasGas EC300 replated. When I
>received the cylinder back, I was quite suprised at how badly etched/
>pitted the gasket sealing surfaces of the cylinder were. The head,
>base, exhaust, and reed block surfaces are rough as hell, looking like
>they were heavily over sand-blasted, or like a really rough as-cast
>surface from a sand casting. Maybe I expected too much, but I thought
>surfaces like that would be masked for protection, or refinished, or
>something. As it is, I'm seriously concerned about the ability of
>these surfaces to seal when the motor is reassembled.
>Anybody have experience with replating cylinders? Did the sealing
>surfaces come back looking really rough, or like you'd expect sealing
>surfaces to appear?
>
>Tim H
******************************

Tim,
I've never had that happen to one of my cylinders when they replated
them.
Normally, the process consists of an acid bath to remove the ceramic
composite cylinder bore material, and then a re-plate and clean-up of
the part. After that, they will hone the cylinder to fit the new
piston that will be used in the fresh top end.
The only thing that looks "rough" is the crosshatch pattern where
the cylinder was honed.

I'd have to speak with the replating company, if it were mine, and
at least give them a chance to machine or build up and machine the
now-rough mating surfaces.

Who did this job?


Wudsracer/Jim Cook
Smackover Racing
'06 Gas Gas DE300
'82 Husqvarna XC250
Team LAGNAF
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

"Wudsracer" <dirtbike_smackoverRemove RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2o6kq3pu5mllrdjhnlvchbf35rcg2ptttu@4ax.com...
>
> I'd have to speak with the replating company, if it were mine, and
> at least give them a chance to machine or build up and machine the
> now-rough mating surfaces.
>
> Who did this job?

Ditto. Mention that you're an aerospace engineer. O-ring problems like
this could cause another Challenger incident.

I'm also curious who you used, as my ATK is really ready for a replate.
(When I first read the title of this post, I was thinking you were fixing
the old ATK. You BASTARD.

-Jeff-
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

"Tim H" <tntharrell RemoveThis @msn.com> wrote in message
news:6f66b3f4-c002-424d-b169-7c733ece028a@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 6, 12:44 pm, Wudsracer <dirtbike_smackoverRem... RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> Who did this job?

I believe it was Millenium. This was the cylinder Jack sent me a
loaner for back in July, which I didn't get back until sometime in
November. Comparing it to the cylinder in the KTMtalk link below, my
actual cylinder plating looks better, but the rest of the surfaces
looked etched to death, including a big notch/crack in the cylinder
"skirt" at the front side of the cylinder that wasn't there before,
but looks like some of the chasms on the KTM cylinder pictured. I
believe what happened to his cylinder and mine was they were left in
the etch tank for too long, and the etchant attacked the base material
anywhere there were casting flaws or inclusions. I'm goping to try to
get some clean photos when I get home and see if I can post them to
RBPM or just send 'em to you.
I think the ruined my cylinder.

Tim H

Yep, it's Millenium. I posted 4 pics at ABPM that will give you a pretty
good idea what I've got. I just might have made it sound a little worse than
it is, but it isn't very good, either. Nothing near as bad as that poor
bastard on KTMtalk.
Check out the pictures and let me know what you think.

Tim H
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

"Tim H" <Tim H.DeleteThis@somethingorother.com> wrote in message
news:hemdncATN-UiFzfanZ2dnUVZ_oimnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Tim H" <tntharrell.DeleteThis@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:6f66b3f4-c002-424d-b169-7c733ece028a@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 6, 12:44 pm, Wudsracer <dirtbike_smackoverRem....DeleteThis@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
> Yep, it's Millenium. I posted 4 pics at ABPM that will give you a pretty
> good idea what I've got. I just might have made it sound a little worse
> than it is, but it isn't very good, either. Nothing near as bad as that
> poor bastard on KTMtalk.
> Check out the pictures and let me know what you think.

I'd also like to go on record as saying the bore of my cylinder looks great,
quite nicely finished. I'm just worried about the sealing surfaces, the
threaded holes, and the wormhole etched through the corner of the front
cylinder skirt. I can't decide if I should trim that corner off, or fill the
hole with epoxy. At this point I'm figuring that I can fix the gasket
surfaces faster with a surface table and some good sandpaper than I could
box the cylinder up to send it back. It took almost 4 months this time, for
whatever reason, and I'm reluctant to let go of a useable bore.

Tim H
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

I use U.S Chrome when I have to get one plated and I will say that they
always come back looking factory fresh with perfect gasket surfaces. I
have used Langcourt in the past with success. I always make sure I get
my original cylinder back, too. It will be interesting to see what they
say to you about it.
Jerry
www.dirtbikeswapmeet.com

Tim H wrote:
> I recently had the cylinder of my GasGas EC300 replated. When I
> received the cylinder back, I was quite suprised at how badly etched/
> pitted the gasket sealing surfaces of the cylinder were. The head,
> base, exhaust, and reed block surfaces are rough as hell, looking like
> they were heavily over sand-blasted, or like a really rough as-cast
> surface from a sand casting. Maybe I expected too much, but I thought
> surfaces like that would be masked for protection, or refinished, or
> something. As it is, I'm seriously concerned about the ability of
> these surfaces to seal when the motor is reassembled.
> Anybody have experience with replating cylinders? Did the sealing
> surfaces come back looking really rough, or like you'd expect sealing
> surfaces to appear?
>
> Tim H
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

On Feb 6, 1:06 pm, Tim H <tntharr....TakeThisOut@msn.com> wrote:
> Anybody have experience with replating cylinders? Did the sealing
> surfaces come back looking really rough, or like you'd expect sealing
> surfaces to appear?
>
> Tim H

I have used Lancourt in Alabama numerous times, quick service and very
good work. I have sent totally trashed cylinders that needed welding
repairs done and they still came back lookin' beeeeautiful. An ok
cyclinder just needing a replate run about $150, and a totally trashed
one has never cost more than $225 http://www.langcourt.com/

-Dave-
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:53:00 -0800, "Tim H" <Tim
H.TakeThisOut@somethingorother.com> wrote:

>I'd also like to go on record as saying the bore of my cylinder looks great,
>quite nicely finished. I'm just worried about the sealing surfaces, the
>threaded holes, and the wormhole etched through the corner of the front
>cylinder skirt. I can't decide if I should trim that corner off, or fill the
>hole with epoxy. At this point I'm figuring that I can fix the gasket
>surfaces faster with a surface table and some good sandpaper than I could
>box the cylinder up to send it back. It took almost 4 months this time, for
>whatever reason, and I'm reluctant to let go of a useable bore.

FOUR months? Is there something about the process that takes a
long time? Or did it sit on a shelf for 3.5 months or so before
it got touched?


----
Go fast and aim for where the trees aren't.
----
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

"Tim H" <Tim H RemoveThis @somethingorother.com> wrote in message
news:T_SdnRWo5IRZNzfanZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@comcast.com...

> box the cylinder up to send it back. It took almost 4 months this time,
> for whatever reason, and I'm reluctant to let go of a useable bore.

A surface table isn't going to smooth out the sealing surfaces in the head
O-ring grooves.

http://sillydog.org/graph/ss/others/challenger_explore.jpg

....just say'n....

-Jeff-
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

> I think the ruined my cylinder.

Sure sounds like it. Raise hell.

JayC
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question 

>On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:36:23 -0800, "Tim H" <Tim H DeleteThis @somethingorother.com> wrote:

>"Tim H" <tntharrell DeleteThis @msn.com> wrote in message
>news:6f66b3f4-c002-424d-b169-7c733ece028a@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 6, 12:44 pm, Wudsracer <dirtbike_smackoverRem... DeleteThis @yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>>
>> Who did this job?
>
>I believe it was Millenium. This was the cylinder Jack sent me a
>loaner for back in July, which I didn't get back until sometime in
>November. Comparing it to the cylinder in the KTMtalk link below, my
>actual cylinder plating looks better, but the rest of the surfaces
>looked etched to death, including a big notch/crack in the cylinder
>"skirt" at the front side of the cylinder that wasn't there before,
>but looks like some of the chasms on the KTM cylinder pictured. I
>believe what happened to his cylinder and mine was they were left in
>the etch tank for too long, and the etchant attacked the base material
>anywhere there were casting flaws or inclusions. I'm goping to try to
>get some clean photos when I get home and see if I can post them to
>RBPM or just send 'em to you.
>I think the ruined my cylinder.
>
>Tim H
>
>Yep, it's Millenium. I posted 4 pics at ABPM that will give you a pretty
>good idea what I've got. I just might have made it sound a little worse than
>it is, but it isn't very good, either. Nothing near as bad as that poor
>bastard on KTMtalk.
>Check out the pictures and let me know what you think.
>
>Tim H
**********************************

I got the photos off abpm. I'll forward them to Jack and see what he
says. I don't like what they did, either. Jack uses Millennium, and
many other engine builders that I respect use them also. (but not me)

I nearly always use Langcourt, myself. I've had the very best
turnaround time and prices, as well as always receiving excellent work
when I've dealt with them.

Jim


Wudsracer/Jim Cook
Smackover Racing
'06 Gas Gas DE300
'82 Husqvarna XC250
Team LAGNAF
 >> Stay informed about: Cylinder Re-Plating question