Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 06:39:20 +0100, Konrad Viltersten
<tmp1.RemoveThis@viltersten.com> wrote:

>I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
>if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
>the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
>slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
>tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
>you back. That "somebody" being of course the
>engine momentum being kept up.
>
>What do the experts say?

The experts say be respectful of the forums where you come asking
favours from. Post it to one group or the other.

--

Home page: http://xidos.ca
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

Konrad Viltersten <tmp1 DeleteThis @viltersten.com> wrote:

> I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
> if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
> the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
> slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
> tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
> you back. That "somebody" being of course the
> engine momentum being kept up.
>
> What do the experts say?
>
Learn to ride and buy a bike with ABS.


--
BMW K1100LT 750SS CB400F CD250 CB125 SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

Konrad Viltersten wrote:
> I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
> if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
> the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
> slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
> tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
> you back. That "somebody" being of course the
> engine momentum being kept up.
>
> What do the experts say?

Uh, the friction force _is_ being applied by rubbing the tires on the
pavement when you are engine braking, unless you're riding a jet bike
with a thrust reverser or something else equally exotic.



--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

On Nov 7, 4:15 am, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use... RemoveThis @cox.net> wrote:
> Konrad Viltersten wrote:
> > I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
> > if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
> > the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
> > slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
> > tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
> > you back. That "somebody" being of course the
> > engine momentum being kept up.
>
> > What do the experts say?
>
> Uh, the friction force _is_ being applied by rubbing the tires on the
> pavement when you are engine braking, unless you're riding a jet bike
> with a thrust reverser or something else equally exotic.

You mean, EVERYONE doesn't? <BOGGLE>
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

"The Older Gentleman" <chateau.murray.takethisout.RemoveThis@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in
message
news:1i775ma.l1tt9k1f4qgm2N%chateau.murray.takethisout@dsl.pipex.com...
> Konrad Viltersten <tmp1.RemoveThis@viltersten.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
>> if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
>> the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
>> slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
>> tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
>> you back. That "somebody" being of course the
>> engine momentum being kept up.
>>
>> What do the experts say?
>>
> Learn to ride and buy a bike with ABS.
>

I'm not sure this guy is going to get out alive.


--

Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Kiddo
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

In article <7ad9849dcbf54@uwe>,
"Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> wrote:

> Then you run into the tricky problem with the brakes. As you stop the wheels
> from turning, the coefficent of friction of the brake pads against the disk
> rotor increases by a factor of 3 times the sliding friction under
> deceleration braking.

Do you mean that just as the wheels stop rotating, the brake rotors will
stop rotating, causing the front wheels to stop rotating?!!! YIKES! So
one should NEVER bring a motorcycle to a complete halt, or the wheels
will stop rotating! AuGH!

> So, you have to be ready to release pressure on the front brake lever just as
> you stop, if you don't have ABS.

What will that accomplish?

> If you hold too much pressure on the front brake lever just as you come to a
> stop, the forks will compress, and, when you do release pressure on the lever,
> the forks will suddenly extend, and you may fall over if you don't have your
> feet on the ground to steady yourself.

Do you mean that all that energy that went into compressing the forks
during braking will be released in one sudden moment?

I used to have a bike with standard forks, and it didn't behave that way
at all. I've ridden a few other bikes as well, and they didn't behave
that way either. What was wrong with all those bikes?

Now the BMW bikes with Telelever don't behave that way, but I suspect
that the rider still has to put his feet down or it will fall over. (I
admit I don't actually know this from personal experience; I always put
my feet down anyway when I cause the wheels to stop rotating.) Do you
think that a Telelever bike, because the forks don't suddenly decompress
like that, won't fall over? That's pretty cool.

My, Albrecht, you are so smart. I can't tell you how glad I am that you
are here to edjamacate us all about how motorcycles work.

--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

"Andrew" <yogig.no.spam.mmm.spam..RemoveThis@n.o.sp.am.@hotmail.com> wrote

> I'm not sure this guy is going to get out alive.

None of us get out alive.

It's more a question of how much you enjoyed getting there and how long you
took to do so.
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam.DeleteThis@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
news:timberwoof.spam-72EF79.21261306112007@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
> In article <5pcvt8Fq34eqU1.DeleteThis@mid.individual.net>,
> Konrad Viltersten <tmp1.DeleteThis@viltersten.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
>> if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
>> the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
>> slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
>> tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
>> you back. That "somebody" being of course the
>> engine momentum being kept up.
>>
>> What do the experts say?
>
> First, even with engine braking, the braking force is transmitted
> through the tire. The tire and the rest of the motorcycle can't tell the
> difference between engine braking and brake braking.
>
> Second, engine braking applies only to the rear wheel. You could lock up
> the rear wheel, which has problems of its own.
>
> The total amount of traction available for any purpose > steering,
> accelerating > is to be smooth on the controls: don't accelerate so much;
> don't go so
> fast; don't brake so hard; don't steer so tightly.
>

Exactly. Plus if you are in traffic, your brake light will warn the cagers
behind you.

Tom K.
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

On Nov 6, 9:39 pm, Konrad Viltersten <t... DeleteThis @viltersten.com> wrote:
> I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
> if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
> the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
> slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
> tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
> you back. That "somebody" being of course the
> engine momentum being kept up.
>
> What do the experts say?

I've spilled before using excessive engine braking.

It's desirable to be gently applying braking force to
both wheels. For normal running, you definitely
moderate speed with the throttle.

Be especially careful when it first starts to rain,
as this will lift up oil and rubber from the road
surface and make things especially slippery.

After it's been raining a while, the road will have
been washed clean by the rain and be a little
less hazardous.

Tree leaves, iron gratings and plastic markings
on the road surface are other hazards.

You may also have to contend with fogging
on your helmet visor.

Best of luck
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam.DeleteThis@infernosoft.com> wrote

> The total amount of traction available for any purpose > steering,
> accelerating > is to be smooth on the controls: don't accelerate so much;
> don't go so
> fast; don't brake so hard; don't steer so tightly.
>

And the "don't brake so hard" includes engine braking.
Staying in a higher gear than "normal" helps with going and stopping in
slick conditions.
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

Timberwoof wrote:
> In article <7ad9849dcbf54@uwe>,
> "Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> wrote:
>
>> Then you run into the tricky problem with the brakes. As you stop
>> the wheels from turning, the coefficent of friction of the brake
>> pads against the disk rotor increases by a factor of 3 times the
>> sliding friction under deceleration braking.
>
> Do you mean that just as the wheels stop rotating, the brake rotors
> will stop rotating, causing the front wheels to stop rotating?!!!
> YIKES! So one should NEVER bring a motorcycle to a complete halt, or
> the wheels will stop rotating! AuGH!
>
>> So, you have to be ready to release pressure on the front brake
>> lever just as you stop, if you don't have ABS.
>
> What will that accomplish?
>
>> If you hold too much pressure on the front brake lever just as you
>> come to a stop, the forks will compress, and, when you do release
>> pressure on the lever, the forks will suddenly extend, and you may
>> fall over if you don't have your feet on the ground to steady
>> yourself.
>
> Do you mean that all that energy that went into compressing the
> forks
> during braking will be released in one sudden moment?
>
> I used to have a bike with standard forks, and it didn't behave that
> way at all. I've ridden a few other bikes as well, and they didn't
> behave that way either. What was wrong with all those bikes?
>
> Now the BMW bikes with Telelever don't behave that way, but I
> suspect
> that the rider still has to put his feet down or it will fall over.
> (I
> admit I don't actually know this from personal experience; I always
> put my feet down anyway when I cause the wheels to stop rotating.)
> Do
> you think that a Telelever bike, because the forks don't suddenly
> decompress like that, won't fall over? That's pretty cool.
>
> My, Albrecht, you are so smart. I can't tell you how glad I am that
> you are here to edjamacate us all about how motorcycles work.

If he's liable to fall over because the fork extended when he let the
brake off at a stop he really shouldn't be riding.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:26:14 -0800, Timberwoof
<timberwoof.spam.TakeThisOut@infernosoft.com> wrote:

>In article <5pcvt8Fq34eqU1.TakeThisOut@mid.individual.net>,
> Konrad Viltersten <tmp1.TakeThisOut@viltersten.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
>> if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
>> the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
>> slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
>> tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
>> you back. That "somebody" being of course the
>> engine momentum being kept up.
>>
>> What do the experts say?
>
>First, even with engine braking, the braking force is transmitted
>through the tire. The tire and the rest of the motorcycle can't tell the
>difference between engine braking and brake braking.
>
>Second, engine braking applies only to the rear wheel. You could lock up
>the rear wheel, which has problems of its own.

<pedant> One of the virtues of engine braking is that you are unlikely
to actually stop the wheel's rotation. Unless, of course, you've
stopped your engine first... </pedant>
>
>The total amount of traction available for any purpose‹braking,
>steering, accelerating‹is diminished in the rain. The proper technique
>is to be smooth on the controls: don't accelerate so much; don't go so
>fast; don't brake so hard; don't steer so tightly.

and keep plenty of extra following distance.

Al Moore
DoD 734
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels 

Tom K. skrev:
> "Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam RemoveThis @infernosoft.com> wrote in message
> news:timberwoof.spam-72EF79.21261306112007@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
>> In article <5pcvt8Fq34eqU1 RemoveThis @mid.individual.net>,
>> Konrad Viltersten <tmp1 RemoveThis @viltersten.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm wondering if it's a good idea to engine brake
>>> if it's slipper on the road. The way i'm reasoning,
>>> the wheels shouldn't loose traction since the
>>> slowing down force is not applied by rubbing the
>>> tires on the pavement but rather "somebody" pulling
>>> you back. That "somebody" being of course the
>>> engine momentum being kept up.
>>>
>>> What do the experts say?
>> First, even with engine braking, the braking force is transmitted
>> through the tire. The tire and the rest of the motorcycle can't tell the
>> difference between engine braking and brake braking.
>>
>> Second, engine braking applies only to the rear wheel. You could lock up
>> the rear wheel, which has problems of its own.
>>
>> The total amount of traction available for any purpose > steering,
>> accelerating > is to be smooth on the controls: don't accelerate so much;
>> don't go so
>> fast; don't brake so hard; don't steer so tightly.
>>
>
> Exactly. Plus if you are in traffic, your brake light will warn the cagers
> behind you.

Got it. However, that's never an issue. When i'm
heading for work, there are no cars on the road.

Konrad
 >> Stay informed about: Breaking on slippery road without locking the wheels