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'05 Daytona

 
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T3

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Since: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 95



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:00 pm
Post subject: '05 Daytona
Archived from groups: rec>motorcycles>racing (more info?)

The long whispered rumor comes true. The '05 200 will feature FX, SB's will
continue as a 100k or so sprint race. Good -bad news? Sure, it'll slow
everybody down for a year or two but will reducing engine size make it any
safer, doubtful at best. Good news for Honda, not much good news for
everyone else. Maybe the AMA should start looking for a safer venue, not
necessarily a slower one. Lighter bikes and removing turn 2 will help but
the heat the g loads generate on the banking will always make it a crap
shoot for riders. I fear that we've all grown too accustomed to the deaths
associated with bike week, not to mention the yearly carnage at the track.
As much as it would bother me personally to see it go, maybe it's time. Or
not..?

Regards,

T3

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Mark N

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Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 411



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:27 pm
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"T3" <T3 DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote
 > The long whispered rumor comes true. The '05 200 will feature FX, SB's
will
 > continue as a 100k or so sprint race. Good -bad news? Sure, it'll slow
 > everybody down for a year or two but will reducing engine size make it any
 > safer, doubtful at best. Good news for Honda, not much good news for
 > everyone else. Maybe the AMA should start looking for a safer venue, not
 > necessarily a slower one. Lighter bikes and removing turn 2 will help but
 > the heat the g loads generate on the banking will always make it a crap
 > shoot for riders. I fear that we've all grown too accustomed to the deaths
 > associated with bike week, not to mention the yearly carnage at the track.
 > As much as it would bother me personally to see it go, maybe it's time. Or
 > not..?

For a historical perspective, Daytona switched the 200 to SBs in '85, when
only Honda had a factory effort in the class. A year later the AMA made SB
the premier class in the series and Daytona dropped F1; in '87 F1 was gone
completely. So it's the bigger picture that interests me, particularly as an
advocate of middleweight SB.

Honda's there, Ducati's there, so FX only lacks Suzuki to equal SB at the
moment, and there are a few fast Suzukis anyway. Given how Suzuki has done
in SS this year, they look like making the move anyway. So that leaves
Kawasaki and Yamaha (and Triumph, I suppose), and why stay in SS if Suzuki
jumps? Seems to me there's a pretty fair chance that we'll see all five of
the factories in SB/FX next year.

Then the question becomes, what happens to SB? Does it hold firm, bolstered
by even a moderate WSB comeback? Do some of the factories reconsider their
investment in MotoGP and start looking elsewhere? Do they shift their
interest to the middleweights?

Anyway, I would think that Daytona is making this move to avoid all the
high-profile issues with tires, and the track changes will help there as
well. I think they have to figure the competitive field will be bigger in FX
than in SB, and that seems quite possible. And rather than talking about the
dwindling field of factory SBs, people will be talking about the new class
in town.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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Julian Bond

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Since: Jun 20, 2003
Posts: 798



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:09 am
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T3 <T3.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
 >The long whispered rumor comes true. The '05 200 will feature FX, SB's will
 >continue as a 100k or so sprint race.

So Daytona SBK remains in the series but won't get double points? Or is
it a demonstration and not part of the AMA SBK championship. Presumably
it will be more like 60 miles or was that what you meant?

A 200 mile race for tuned 600s? Maybe they should just drop it.

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ecademy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ecademy.com/</a>
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M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Julian Bond

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Since: Jun 20, 2003
Posts: 798



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:20 am
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Mark N <menusbaum.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
 >Seems to me there's a pretty fair chance that we'll see all five of
 >the factories in SB/FX next year.

Do you mean SBK and FX or just FX?

 >Then the question becomes, what happens to SB? Does it hold firm, bolstered
 >by even a moderate WSB comeback? Do some of the factories reconsider their
 >investment in MotoGP and start looking elsewhere? Do they shift their
 >interest to the middleweights?

If all 5 factories are in SB, why shift? I still say the current AMA
class structure is confused and confusing and so can't last. There has
to be a shakeout. You have to have a single premier class to build the
meeting and PR around. You need a single premier support class to back
it up that is obviously different. And then you need one or two support
classes that provide a much lower cost way to be involved and to fill
the day with quality racing.

Factory, shmactory. MotoGP, shmotoGP. There's a strong chance that a
privateer team will win WSB this year. It's almost certain that a
privateer team will win BSB. Neither team has pulled any money away from
MotoGP. The same goes for Aus, Canada, Germany. Don't tell me (again)
that racing in the USA is different. Because it certainly is. It's run
by the AMA.

The only thing holding any of the factories back next year in any of the
SBK championships is money, pride and commitment. Every factory has had
wins and podiums at the top level somewhere in the world.

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ecademy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ecademy.com/</a>
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Mark N

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Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 411



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:31 am
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.RemoveThis@voidstar.com> wrote
 > Mark N <menusbaum.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
  > >Seems to me there's a pretty fair chance that we'll see all five of
  > >the factories in SB/FX next year.
 >
 > Do you mean SBK and FX or just FX?

SB and FX.

 > If all 5 factories are in SB, why shift? I still say the current AMA
 > class structure is confused and confusing and so can't last. There has
 > to be a shakeout. You have to have a single premier class to build the
 > meeting and PR around. You need a single premier support class to back
 > it up that is obviously different. And then you need one or two support
 > classes that provide a much lower cost way to be involved and to fill
 > the day with quality racing.

Well, that's the conventional thinking anyway, but I'd mostly agree. If the
factories all are in SB next year with the best riders, that's the top class
by default. Any movement from SS to FX would make that the top support class
almost by default, especially with this move by Daytona. SS classes without
full factory participation can't be more than support classes. It's not the
class structure that makes things confusing, it's the factories' decisions
on what to do with it this year.

 > Factory, shmactory. MotoGP, shmotoGP. There's a strong chance that a
 > privateer team will win WSB this year. It's almost certain that a
 > privateer team will win BSB. Neither team has pulled any money away from
 > MotoGP. The same goes for Aus, Canada, Germany. Don't tell me (again)
 > that racing in the USA is different. Because it certainly is. It's run
 > by the AMA.

C'mon, Julian, you're defining things purely based on your point of the
moment. Weren't you the one crowing about BSB because all the factories are
there? Weren't you saying the Hondas are as much factory bikes as the ones
in the AMA, and the same for Suzuki? Now Reynolds' bike is a privateer
machine? That scenario is possible in WSB because the series drove all the
factories out except Ducati, and they have been struggling with a weak
machine that is doing little in BSB and AMA against the other factories and
is therefore vulnerable in WSB. Before Vermuelen won at Silverstone how long
had it been since a privateer Japanese four had won in WSB? Over a decade,
I'd think. I wasn't talking about the AMA only there, I was talking about SB
everywhere, and MotoGP has most certainly impacted SB in a big way.

 > The only thing holding any of the factories back next year in any of the
 > SBK championships is money, pride and commitment. Every factory has had
 > wins and podiums at the top level somewhere in the world.

Pretty much, but money and commitment are big hurdles, don't you think?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark N

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Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 411



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:34 am
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.TakeThisOut@voidstar.com> wrote

 > So Daytona SBK remains in the series but won't get double points? Or is
 > it a demonstration and not part of the AMA SBK championship. Presumably
 > it will be more like 60 miles or was that what you meant?

Daytona has never awarded double points to Daytona, just one race out of 18
this year. Next year it will be the normal 100k race, no pit stops, etc.

 > A 200 mile race for tuned 600s? Maybe they should just drop it.

Julian, 1985: "A 200 mile race for tuned streetbikes? Maybe they should just
drop it."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Julian Bond

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Since: Jun 20, 2003
Posts: 798



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:39 am
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T3 <T3.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
 >The long whispered rumor comes true.

Hollingsworth stated "However, it's no secret that Formula Xtreme
equipment may one day form the basis for Superbikes."

Maybe in the USA. I can't see this happening anywhere else.

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ecademy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ecademy.com/</a>
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M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark N

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Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 411



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:39 am
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.TakeThisOut@voidstar.com> wrote
 > T3 <T3.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote:
  > >The long whispered rumor comes true.

 > Hollingsworth stated "However, it's no secret that Formula Xtreme
 > equipment may one day form the basis for Superbikes."

 > Maybe in the USA. I can't see this happening anywhere else.

Julian, 1985: "Maybe in the USA modified streetbikes could become the
premier class. I can't see this happening anywhere else."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Julian Bond

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Since: Jun 20, 2003
Posts: 798



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:50 am
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T3 <T3.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
 >The long whispered rumor comes true.

I should have batched these up.

"Proposal 4. Entry restrictions on factory riders in Superbike and
Superstock would be removed."

Will this further dilute the fields? Or will it mean someone like Yates
racing in all 4 classes?

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ecademy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ecademy.com/</a>
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M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark N

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Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 411



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:50 am
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.TakeThisOut@voidstar.com> wrote
 > T3 <T3.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote:

 > "Proposal 4. Entry restrictions on factory riders in Superbike and
 > Superstock would be removed."

 > Will this further dilute the fields? Or will it mean someone like Yates
 > racing in all 4 classes?

The idea, assumedly, is that the current rule which bans any factory rider
participating in SStock from competing in SB has limited factory
participation in SB. I'm not entirely certain that's been true. The intent
of that rule was to limit the number of factory riders in SStock, but that
backfired, it seems. What it might mean is that someone like Hacking could
participate in SB next year and also display the number one plate in SStock.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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T3

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Since: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 95



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:05 am
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond RemoveThis @voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:NrYmcGBuibHBFAFj@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
 > T3 <T3 RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote:
  > >The long whispered rumor comes true. The '05 200 will feature FX, SB's
will
  > >continue as a 100k or so sprint race.
 >
 > So Daytona SBK remains in the series but won't get double points? Or is
 > it a demonstration and not part of the AMA SBK championship. Presumably
 > it will be more like 60 miles or was that what you meant?
 >
 > A 200 mile race for tuned 600s? Maybe they should just drop it.
 >
 > --
 > Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
<font color=purple> > Webmaster: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ecademy.com/</font" target="_blank">http://www.ecademy.com/</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > Personal WebLog: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.voidstar.com/</font" target="_blank">http://www.voidstar.com/</font</a>>
 > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433

Julian, that's what I was trying to say. Maybe, just maybe, it's time to let
it go... Times change, I'd hate to see it go but....... BTW- I'm not even
sure the SB race will be a part of the Chevy Superbike thing, who knows?
....

T3

AMA Proracing, the people you love to hate........<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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T3

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Since: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 95



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:07 am
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.RemoveThis@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:8sLatSAiGcHBFAzG@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
 > T3 <T3.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
  > >The long whispered rumor comes true.
 >
 > Hollingsworth stated "However, it's no secret that Formula Xtreme
 > equipment may one day form the basis for Superbikes."
 >
 > Maybe in the USA. I can't see this happening anywhere else.
 >
 > --
 > Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
<font color=purple> > Webmaster: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ecademy.com/</font" target="_blank">http://www.ecademy.com/</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > Personal WebLog: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.voidstar.com/</font" target="_blank">http://www.voidstar.com/</font</a>>
 > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433

"Other places" have decent venues!!! Not so here....
T3<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Bruce Richmond

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Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 95



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:34 am
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Julian Bond <julian_bond DeleteThis @voidstar.com> wrote in message news:<q7vvofCzzbHBFAhE DeleteThis @jblaptop.voidstar.com>...
 > Mark N <menusbaum DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
  > >Seems to me there's a pretty fair chance that we'll see all five of
  > >the factories in SB/FX next year.
 >
 > Do you mean SBK and FX or just FX?
 >
  > >Then the question becomes, what happens to SB? Does it hold firm, bolstered
  > >by even a moderate WSB comeback? Do some of the factories reconsider their
  > >investment in MotoGP and start looking elsewhere? Do they shift their
  > >interest to the middleweights?

They will have to get rid of SB since it would be a joke to have their
premier class named Xtreme when there is a faster class out there.

 > If all 5 factories are in SB, why shift? I still say the current AMA
 > class structure is confused and confusing and so can't last. There has
 > to be a shakeout. You have to have a single premier class to build the
 > meeting and PR around. You need a single premier support class to back
 > it up that is obviously different. And then you need one or two support
 > classes that provide a much lower cost way to be involved and to fill
 > the day with quality racing.

Makes sense to me, but we're talking about AMA Pro Racing here. They
would much rather have four premier classes. I mean, how do you
expext them to make the bucks off those cheap classes without getting
the factories involved?

 > Factory, shmactory. MotoGP, shmotoGP. There's a strong chance that a
 > privateer team will win WSB this year. It's almost certain that a
 > privateer team will win BSB. Neither team has pulled any money away from
 > MotoGP. The same goes for Aus, Canada, Germany. Don't tell me (again)
 > that racing in the USA is different. Because it certainly is. It's run
 > by the AMA.
 >
 > The only thing holding any of the factories back next year in any of the
 > SBK championships is money, pride and commitment. Every factory has had
 > wins and podiums at the top level somewhere in the world.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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S Frank

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 167



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:03 pm
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I agree. So what will the AMA claim to be their premier class next
year? Obviously at Daytona FX will be the premier class. Will it
remain that way throughout the year? Will FX go to double header
rounds and SB go to just one race/weekend?


--
Shane

"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.DeleteThis@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:q7vvofCzzbHBFAhE@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
 >
 > If all 5 factories are in SB, why shift? I still say the current AMA
 > class structure is confused and confusing and so can't last. There has
 > to be a shakeout. You have to have a single premier class to build the
 > meeting and PR around. You need a single premier support class to back
 > it up that is obviously different. And then you need one or two support
 > classes that provide a much lower cost way to be involved and to fill
 > the day with quality racing.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Julian Bond

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Since: Jun 20, 2003
Posts: 798



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:57 pm
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Mark N <menusbaum.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
 >Julian, 1985: "A 200 mile race for tuned streetbikes? Maybe they should just
 >drop it."

The Horror, The Horror! Something I wrote 9 years ago comes back to
haunt me.

It could be worse I suppose it could be something I wrote last week.

--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond at voidstar.com
Webmaster: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ecademy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ecademy.com/</a>
Personal WebLog: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.voidstar.com/" target="_blank">http://www.voidstar.com/</a>
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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